Unsurprisingly, I tend to view this situation more in terms of Goldsmith. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I think it's more so about the way things are going and how it's almost unstoppable force. The way in which we consume music is certainly changing. I think my main point in this whole discussion is that artists need to recognize this and go with it. For better or worse, the album is on its way out.

Kinnik. I never said you were jealous about the content of the meaning that people feel toward their music. I am saying that you're jealous of the fact that people feel some sort of meaning in their lives. From what I can gather about you from your posts, you live a totally meaningless life. I didn't set up the binary between "this" (meaning an identity deriving from the categories created by the capitalist mode of production, in this case a music snob or a hipster) or nothing. It's more so that your rejection of said influence has posited your relationship to yourself in terms of some unattainable ideal of religious like proportions. Never mind the fact that your stance is derived from a western philosophy, which whether you like it or not, was born out of that same mode or production which you so ardently criticize. The ressentiment you must feel must be astounding. I'm not saying that you have to check back into society to meet your needs, but you should find some sort of purpose or meaning and stop berating the rest of us who can carry on through this song and dance called life relatively happy. No one is asking you to stop thinking critically and no one is asking you to sit back and watch the charade happen, but you should also recognize that the pedestal that you stand on is fully supported by the mode of production which you criticize. If you were living outside of the charade looking on and criticizing that would be one thing, but the very fact that you are connected to the internet, posting on this message board means that you are acting out the ideology which you are criticizing. So, whether you like it or not, you're doing the same shit that you are criticizing everyone else for doing.

n'ik's a very creative dude.

It is for the very attitudes expressed in this thread (on both sides of arguement, actually) that I gave up on trying to be a "rock star", and will never be inticed back into it. There's just too many people out there who believe that quenching their thirst for music overrides an artist's need to support themselves, which makes the fact that the music I like listening to and creating has never really been popular in a mainstream context even worse. So I've chosen to create music for a huge and ever increasing market (video games) for money, and just keep the self-expression aspect of it as a hobby, writing songs and playing small shows for the fun of it.

You said it.

I haven't, but then again I've never been in a band that went far beyond the confines of whatever our practice space was at the time. Music to me has always been about fun/etc. Touring, I know, gives band an opportunity to sell merchandise. Fans are always interested in tee shirts/posters/buttons/etc. I think if I were in a band, I'd try and work on some clever marketing scheme. Sell shirts for a wee bit expensive (like maybe 15 bucks) and throw in a free cd or some shit. Maybe press a limited amount on wax for those interested in that sort of thing. I don't know. Really, I don't view music, or creating music, as something someone should approach in any sense as a career move. Of course, if one wants to go that route more power to them and every once in a while success can be found for some....but whatever. Reality is, most bands never really "make it". I like some of the more clever marketing schemes I see out of few of todays bands like Radiohead + NIN (not saying anything about the actual music of either artist). Let fans pay what they want/etc. it's seemed to work well for both of these bands. But of course, I know this sort of scheme does little for smaller (cough cough "underground") bands....but whatever. it takes hard work like anything else and like anything else it should. Music isn't necessary for the simple survival of anyone. It doesn't put gas in my gas tank to get to work. It doesn't put food in my fridge. Whatever. Again, I support anyone doing anything they want to do, but getting all butt hurt because people "steal" music these days is just silly....other schemes at making coin can be figured out. Musicians need to quit bitching and start thinking. Just my take...+ sorry if that offends.

Nick hates the self and he comes across as one of the most self-centred posters on here. He even admitted that he often thinks all other posts are about himself, once. Somebody help this naysayer out with coherence, please.

Hahahahahaha!! NOBODY enjoys what they do! Enjoying cultural artefacts is....wait....THE ENFORCEMENT OF DEPRESSION!! WHOHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Please continue airing your pompous gibberish on this thread. It's culturally entertaining.

My enjoyment of ''stuff'', let alone my life in general, isn't affected by your posts at all. You're deluded if you think they are. How could you possibly know how much someone enjoys what they do unless they regularly keep you up to date on here?
What does '' you don't seem to, or else you would be off doing it.'' really mean? If I decide to reply to a post of yours, how exactly am I meant to be doing something that I enjoy if I don't feel like it right then? And shouldn't that be the case for you too?

Please somebody stop him from saying anything!! He'll be the end for us!!!

Fair enough. But I come on this board to argue with people. It's the only reason I really do it. I've been responding to your posts because I have a lot of time on my hands at the moment, and here in a couple of days I'll whither away into SYG obscurity again. I in fact do use this board to derive a sense of enjoyment, and unfortunately, I won't stop arguing with you only because you tend to provide psuedo-intellectual arguments that anyone with any real sense can see are elaborate justifications for a lifestyle and an intellectual reasoning that are contradictory. You're a poster that I can, at the very least, sink my teeth into, and for that I appreciate you.

The ironic thing about this whole thing is that you seem to think that I am the one asserting my power over you, but in reality, the Prophet Kinnik can't seem to recognize the source of what little confidence he has in himself. Asserting your power over people on a message board is kind of a sad thing to do, and while I did it on a lonely Saturday night, as a distraction from the mountains of work that I have to have finished by the weekend, you seem to make a habit it of it. It's quite funny because I don't think anyone is fooled by the persona you create on this board. I seem to hit a nerve when I make ad hominem arguments, am I making you feel something that you intellectualized away long ago? Unfortunately for you, feeling is a biological characteristic that you can't escape. You do have emotions; you were selected for them.

Regardless, what are you actually advocating?

Must spread etc.

Seriously bro I can't believe how much you type....... I mean you're good at riling people up on a forum and what not but what's your wpm, like 400?

I also love how this thread when on track is centered around "making a living" from music when there are so many other facets at play. If "the album is on it's way out" (which I don't believe for one single second) and there were no more independent record shops or great looking records and everything was reduced to a blogspot link and a jpg image represent the cover, well that would be pretty depressing, no? But according to the "new model" you'd get a cool t-shirt or a button? not that I think that would ever actually happen but that's probably the worst reality for music I've ever heard.......

I think I'll go record shopping today, and I think I'll quit rolling my eyes at the idea of a fake holiday like record store day.........

nik brings the lulz and people actually read his long posts.
grade a-mazing.
I download music and buy music.
I like buying stuff I like.
Especially when the packaging etc. is interesting/well conceived/cleverly put together/etc.
End.
Have fun!

Yeah yeah. You never said what you're advocating for... I am quite curious.

I mean, don't wear yourself out. It's all in good fun, you know.

You're making it out like other people who disagree with you never feel negative about certain things.
You're doing it to avoid giving a direct answer to questions you've been asked on this thread more than once. Is it all too exhausting and tedious? Perhaps you should use some of the time you spend being antagonistic elaborating your point in a less evasive manner.

You are under obligation to provide an alternative, if you put an argument forward against another. What makes this exhausting and tedious for you is that your alternative would be more suited to a global village of heavily medicated mongoloids living under the dictatorship of a giant cockroach on a planet ravaged by wars against aliens wearing your mother's best clothes. Something like that.

Life is momentary. We can only do our best to make the world a better place, while it seems that everything else would work agaisnt that. Momentary pleasures. Momentary acts of charity. They are forgotton while momentary acts of violence last thousands of years and keep fueling hate.

So if the world is so fucked, and life is momentary, maybe some ppl enjoy the short, momentary relief they get from music.

What is better? causing momentary relief? or posting negative thoughts and hating on people in momentary lashing outs on the internet?

You piss off most people here, but only for a few minutes.

When you upset me here I forget about it minutes later, after I post my retorts. As I'm sure most people here do as well.

So, how does it make you feel to know that you waste just as much time here posting away as some of us do making music?

At least we are wasting our time and energy in the real world, and not on the internet.


So, no, maybe you're not jealous, but at least some ppl can feel worth from their lives, even if you think they are wasting their time.

But you are wasting your time trying to sway us from what makes us happy. Sorry you cannot be happy.

I doubt even the gnarliest post/burn you've ever delt to me gave you an ounce of happiness.

That is what he was trying to say, in less words.

A better reply could be said from eugene's post in another, unrelated thread.

"Everyone has major struggles in their life, which sucks goat testes, but the beauty of existence comes in the form of overcoming those obstacles. Think about any rags to riches American dream story... isn't that just the most beautiful thing in the world?"

Nick is providing subliminal entertainment for the post-jaded, pleasure-seeking proletariat. You don't need to really get his posts, you just need to pretend they're there. The message is only disclosed via the gradual disintegration of all medical evidence in the face of imminent mental collapse. Duh.

What Would Zizek Do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5yoqjABeBM

Buzzo weighs in on the state of selling music today:
http://thephoenix.com/BLOGS/onthedow...#ixzz1OVU1Wk4u

Are you two not the same person?

Haha are you serious?

I wonder if putting in five months of preliminary work that culminates in three consecutive 14-16 hour days of heavy manual labor and coordination of personnel in combination with a MASSIVE financial risk and zero pay counts as "giving something back" or not.
Because that is my annual music fest that I have helped throw for the past eight years.

We are on the same page for the most part, but the way I see it, the only time one really CAN tell the difference between digital/AAA recordings and hear atrifacts and such is when one has a very high-quality stereo system.

I also think that if one has made the investment in a good syatem, one should also invest in the highest-quality recording available of the music one is interested in. What is the point otherwise?

I agree - my stereo is grey but at a certain point a lot ofthe stuff I like is not readily available in LP format. I'd take a CD copy of Amon Duul IIs Yeti than a download any day, although if it's available on LP I'm not even sure if which route I would go, vinyl seems to be so much more expensive than it used to be. And worse yet I've just moved into a condo and could t take any of my CDs with me for space reasons, I've got a shelf of my favorite LPs and a hard drive full of 320 mps of the rest of my collection....... :(

Oh well at least my LPs sound great and my stereo is awesome.......

One of the jewels in my collection is my German original of "Yeti."
That was a major score.

I really liked the part about how theres going to be no studios, no chances taken and what not with he loss of the albums, but you know what, just because that's the way the future is heading doesn't mean I have to agree with it...... I have zero interest inThe Melvins musically but Buzzo is spot on opinion wise........

All the Amon Duul II represses I've ever seen are ridiculously fucking expensive. I still wouldn't mind picking one up though.

Rad stuff. My brother has a Repertoire reissue 2xLP that coat him fifty dollars, I'm sorry I like records and since it's probably my favorite LP I'd consider it, but I've got a long list of stuff I want and I'd rather pay the 16 dollars for the CD version....... I feel like every LP put there these is ridiculously overpriced, just because it's vinyl....... I'll bet the cost of manufacturing is high yes but I distinctly remember a time in myofetime where for many records the LP version was the same price or a dollar less....... And this is 15-17 years ago, not the 80's or whatever. Granted the price of CDs has go e down, but come on.......

Without covers, manufacturing 500 LPs costs close to $2000.00. And then there are the covers. Break-even pricing once it goets through distro channels (for small pressings at least) makes a $15.00 retail price pretty close to rock-bottom for LPs. Double LPs with color covers? More still
Manufacturing CDs is about 9 times less expensive.

I always thought that he was an alter ego of you... apologies if im wrong:confused:

No need for apologies, but yes, you're very very wrong, my friend.

My understanding is the labels used to lose money on LPs and make it up with CD sales, but I guess no one is willing to take these risks anymore...... Since no one is buying CDs anymore......

I asked someone earlier what the difference is between a DVD and a CD. She answered none, except I'll pay for a DVD. Let's just put that one out: why do people still pay for films, or other DVD content, but not recordings?

Because it seems that movie downloading is still generally unknown to the mainstream public. Ask Joe Bloggs what a torrent is and he'll have no idea.

Ironically I just moved and cancelled my cable, and am now totally reliant on an HD antenna and torrenting (or at least I will be when my ISP installs my Internet tomorrow). Do I feel paying independent musicians and paying TV stations or movie studios money is even remotely the same thing? Not even close! Will I purchase DVDs from bands I like (such as Opeth)? Yes indeed I will!! However I will buy a DVD every now and again if it's worth it to me (it rarely is).......

I've noticed recently that DVDs are also now cheaper than CDs generally. So many awesome movies on amazon for a penny.