I am not sure what it is about Bernie-Supporters and a certain cultish devotion to him, and there really seems to be an extremely concerted effort by a lot of his online surrogates towards thuggish behavior (Chapo Trap House is one group who have been officially courted by Bernie directly and have had some of the most vile attacks towards Warren and Buttigieg)

I am not gonna lie while Warren is my #1, at this point I seriously put Bernie last despite their similar policy stances. I got into a kinda heated discussion with my cousin (who is a Media Writer and a Bernie-supporter) over the tone of his campaign and I have been completely turned off as him as the messenger, his ego of jumping back in this cycle when he could have been more powerful as king maker.

I am not really willing to be apart of a movement that is willing to target and bully people into thinking their way, I have seen this tactic before, I don't accept it even if my politics align with it or not.

On the issue of queerness, Pete doesn't want to be defined by it, he is who he is, it's not unlike Tim Cook being the CEO of Apple, he was sorta out of the closet just not on a wide scale but there was that mess where a CNBC analyst got confused on air whether he was out or not (he wasn't at the time and that was 2 years before he came out), or when I learned from my Uncles Anderson Cooper was Gay (many many years before he was publicly out)

Queerness is not a tidy box where everyone conforms to type, Many are religious like my Uncles (who are Catholic) and Many like Pete are Economic Liberals. We are pretty damn wide, and especially only so many years removed of Obergefell v. Hodges and Don't Ask Don't Tell, acceptance is still very much at an early point in the US

also I will speak to !@#$%! reputation, I have known him a long time through this forum and in person, he gave me a ride from Arthurfest with Jenn and Naomi in 05, he has a distinct perspective on politics formed from life experiences most here couldn't fathom. Plainly he knows his shit

I’ve been steering pretty clear of this, because I fucking hate primary season, and in this era where the Democrats need — perhaps more than ever — to unite and simply work for the country’s best interest and remove that goddam oaf currently squatting in the Oval Office, I cannot stand hearing these candidates take one another to task and split the goddamn party electorate YET AGAIN as though 2016 taught us nothing.

I’ve seen people accuse Warren of being an imperialist, fake-liberal warmonger. I’ve seen people batter and bash Bernie. Don’t really want to get into Biden or Buttigieg, because frankly I’m of the opinion that a moderate approach is simply not what’s needed BUT... fuck, man. We need a dem in office so badly.

I hate this shit. I absolutely hate it. I cannot do another 2016. I’ll lose my Fucking shit.

So there’s my contribution to this thread, have fun

Sometimes I wonder if the people who post these articles on here even read them first

They have devotion towards him because he's the only candidate who is truly for the working person and doesn't have to answer to the millionaires and billionaires funding everyone else's campaigns. How do you not see that? People are fed up and want a new way of politics and that begins with basic expanded social programs that wouldn't be seen as left-wing in any other developed country. People are fed up of the greed and corruption and they see in Bernie someone who is actually on their side.

"Thuggish behavior" you sound like Bloomberg lol. The Chapo guys and the vast majority of Bernie supporters are harmless but you keep denying poor people healthcare and college cuz some Bernie supporters hurt your fee fees.

Never mind that Bernie's base consists of a lot of immigrants, people of colour and working class women. And never mind that they are routinely criticised by liberals for supporting Bernie yet of course it's all the fault of this malevolent hidden force known as the "Bernie bros", a narrative created by the media because they know if they attack Bernie on policy they'll come out looking worse. What do they do in that case? They attack his supporters, they attack his surrogates, they undermine his wins and his election potential. When his supporters fight back from the huge mountain he has to climb, they're the problem apparently.

His "ego" of jumping back into this cycle? Why in the world would he not run again this cycle? You're delusional. He's winning. So haha.

Warren and Buttigieg deserve to be criticised btw. Just saying "vote blue no matter who" isn't good enough! It's time to rally around someone who can actually create a working class coalition and right a lot of the wrongs that neoliberalism has inflicted on the world as it's tore through communities and created a huge wealth equality gap.

I hope you know that this attitude is how someone like Bloomberg gets the nomination. He may be a racist sexist billionaire who hates the poor but he's our racist sexist billionaire who hates the poor. If you want a progressive then fight for a progressive! The primary is the time to separate the real from the fake.

Cool, any evidence of that? Do you want tons of evidence of people saying disgusting things to Bernie supporters or is it just cuz you don't like Bernie?

Damn, all this talk about uniting the party and you're all slandering the frontrunner and a huge base of democratic voters in the general!

No he didn't lmao.

Interesting how I always hear bullshit like this from anti-Bernie people and never convincing arguments against his policies and what he wants to do. Actually I never hear discussions on policy from supporters of any of the other candidates. Almost like politics is a game for some people and not life or fucking death. How could you tell someone that they don't deserve healthcare or the ability to go to college? How can you tell someone that we don't need to have drastic action on climate change or a wage that they can actually live on? How can you tell people to vote for a candidate who won't go fully ahead with these basic things because "VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO"? Also, don't be passionate about fighting for these things lest you be known as a "Bernie bro", an easy way to tar a huge diverse coalition with a smarmy elitist name.

It's insane. I hope people look in the mirror and see what kind of world they want when they have to pick between Bernie or Trump.

man, you clearly know nothing about the usa healthcare system. the poor have no problem getting healthcare: they get medicaid!

the ones who get reamed in the current system are the middle class, who make too much to get medicaid and in some cases too little to afford the premiums and deductibles and copays, and might not get health insurance at work. also people who make too much for obamacare subsidies and must pay out of pocket,

the REAL problem is rampant cost increase, which is a problem for EVERYONE, and yes, single payer could be very effective at addressing, but it would require a major readjustment of the economy and meet enormous resistance in the legislature and the courts. even AOC made the case that likely it won’t happen—man, she’s so much better than the fanatic berniebros at making sense.

building on obamacare and expanding medicare for those who want it is achievable, but i think the moderates have a better way to appeal to a larger constituency and build consensus to achieve it. we can discuss this instead of science fiction bullcaca about false premises.

also, if you’re for bernie on this one, why aren’t you for warren too?

"The poor have no problem getting healthcare". Meanwhile on planet earth:

And never mind the families with adequate healthcare who are in eternal debt to the system because they've had a medical emergency. Absolutely barbaric. No other developed country is envious of the American healthcare system, believe me.

And I don't trust Warren to fight for M4A considering she flip flopped on it when she was polling well and has returned to it now that she isn't. Transparent.

Of course me wanting a basic human right for everyone regardless of status is "science fiction bullcaca" when the USA lives in its own permanent fantasy land regarding this issue.

Look in a Mirror huh?

like politics is a game for some people and not life or fucking death?

oh buddy, it's so easy to throw words around like that behind a computer screen isn't it

I'll just say this, My entire life has collapsed because of the last several years, Looking into a mirror with a copy of Silver Sessions with Jason Knuth last month, I'm homeless and dealing with longtime disabilities and a recent major issue of crippling PTSD, and frankly it's even worse than that, but I am hesitant to discuss openly some aspects about what happened last month

It's weird, I haven't listened to a Sonic Youth album in years, the songs pop up in my playlists all the time but haven't sat down and just listened to them in a long time. And it's so weird not seeing most of the old forum, I am friends with most on FB but only very few of them are still here

don't post here for the vultures man

bunch of pricks everywhere

discuss your issues in private, with your friends

I didn't say any of that to assume your life circumstances. In fact, I can only hope you ignore all the political insider hoohah and see that Bernie's platform is there to help people like you who see the modern world not working for them. His campaign are fighting for you regardless of if you have an iota of interest in voting for him. While we can fight all day about the ramifications of Medicare For All, ultimately he will help get the boot off of the labour force a little and that's worth it all. A break from decades of the rich just doing what they want and shitting on the little guy, at last. Working people and certainly the disabled deserve better. You deserve better.

dear lord, this is donkey level

the quote you provided is about INSURANCE. the insurance problem is a "donut hole" problem. people at the bottom don't need to pay for it, people at the top can afford the best, and the middle sometimes fall through the cracks.

fair enough, not all states have expanded medicaid. so it's a state by state issue. fuckers.

but EVERY DEMOCRAT AGREES WE SHOULD HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. the difference is a practical one of *by which means* to get there *in actuality*. as opposed to "in dreams".

you can't simply wish universal health care for all and poof, it happens. it's a massive problem and it needs to be hacked apart in pieces.

but okay, you're a true believer in the messiah, therefore of impenetrable mind, and hence, why am i even trying to hash out a practical problem with the faithful. hallelujah, or something.

God, you just don't get it. No one is saying Bernie will click his fingers and M4A will happen. It is an ongoing fight, one that doesn't start and stop with one presidential candidate. You seem hard pressed to deny any aspiration because you're the "realist" and the "rational one" for saying something is impossible and shouldn't be attempted.

but theres a big problem with bernie not offering any specifics nor how to pay for it. "we're gonna take on the corporatiooooooooons..."

sure, kamikaze, please explain how.

warren is offering her 2% compound negative interest to pay for it-- that's something more tangible than "we're gonna fight greeeeeeeeeeed...."

how is the what.

also, to remind you, the fucking republicans are in control of the senate, currently sitting on a million pieces of legislation doing nothing about it just becuz.

(okay, not "a million", i think it's something like 300 bills)

the presidency is easy. it's easy to get a manacled president elected. WE NEED TO KEEP THE HOUSE AND FLIP THE SENATE.

And there's a big problem with you turning into an economist wonk whenever there is an ideological or class argument. Healthcare is a human right and M4A is completely inclusive. When the US spends trillions on war (which both parties vote for), the question is never "durr how do we pay for it tho". The question is never "how do we pay for it" for many destructive things embedded into the US political system. Yet it's the first question when it comes to healthcare? The thing that determines the general wellbeing of a nation? You'll never convince me otherwise, sorry.

you're like a political astronomer, looking at us through your telescope trying to figure out what the fuck is happening here and why we can't get our shit together.

there are FIFTY STATES, each with 2 senators. wyoming has the same number of senators as california.

the first thing the 2 wyoming senators are gonna ask, representing, oh, 500,000 folks?, is "how are we gonna pay for it?" and neutralize the 2 california senators representing, hm, 40 million. and fuck us.

ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL. but have fun playing with your toy telescope.

Yes, you're right, the US electoral system is completely crooked. Good thing there's a candidate whose whole campaign is about challenging power structures. Also you speak to me in the same way when you talk about the UK so come off it mate lol.

MSNBC's top headline after the Nevada caucus: "Bernie falls to first place as Klobuchar heads to a respectable winner's 3rd place"

i don't think i've ever tried to tell UK residents what to do or who to vote for

i mostly ask them questions, and i may have my favorites, but i don't go there saying "vote for farage" or whatever.

i did wish you well in your attempt at independence though. which failed because a lot of people prefer the known over the unknown even if it's not great for them.

yeah he's been ahead in the nevada polls all weekend. the suprising one for me is biden 2nd, coming back from the dead.

do you know what the role of the senate is, and why it exists, and what it would take to... do away with it?

Yep, and how do you change that? By mobilising a broad coalition of people who aren't typically involved in the political system or need help in moving out of their "nothing will get better" mindset. As a Scottish person, cynicism is our worst enemy. A lot of the US has this same problem, but this ties in with fighting poverty and "diseases of despair" as I've talked about before.

Also Trump winning again will give the Tory government much more time to sell off parts of the NHS to Trump. Bernie will reject it. The whole world has a stake in this dumbass continuing to be president and I believe Bernie is the only way to defeat him, so I will strongly advocate for anyone to vote for him.

I've long been in conflict with "healthcare is a human right" line.


There's healthcare the payment structure, and there's health care the act.


I can't and shouldn't be able to forcefully stop you from caring for yourself. If you break your leg, I can't stop you from seeking out care to heal it. If you get a head cold, I can't stop you from buying over the counter cold meds. It's your right to care for your health.


That's not the same as the payment structure, which I don't think is a human right. That said though, I'd much prefer my taxes to go to things like healthcare, than all the international interventions and wars we've been in pretty much non stop since I can remember.

You're British and agreeing with a pro-private insurance American. The Queen just shed a tear.

The fact that there's so much pushback on here about the very simple and agreeable idea of a free at point of access health system shows how out of touch this board is now. It's an insanely popular idea that exists in most developed countries and there's nary a peep about reverting any current systems. I just don't get it. It's like talking to a million brick walls. I repeat myself over and over cause I get the exact same tired responses. You've all become your parents. The idea of M4A will become the standard opinion in the US soon enough (as if it isn't already) and you will be even more confused about how the world is now, still playing by an old rulebook that was torn up long ago.

i don’t think it’s likely that bernie will mobilize a broad coalition to flip the senate. if anything, he’ll get his loyalist plus some vote blue no matter who folks like me, but lose the middle, the independents, and republicans who are unhappy with loco trump.

im not saying it’s not possible. im saying—maybe it’s possible he could mobilize the sleepers. maybe, don’t know how many there are. i’ve never seen them.

but it’s also possible that he could lose in a major debacle. the potential downside is significant.

a moderate candidate could also win, get the independents, get the discontent republicans, and get a true broad base.

a moderate could also lose, but the chances of a major debacle with them are lower. even someone as unispiring as hillary lost by just a few key districts.

the real battle is the battle for the senate. the contests for the senate are not among “the poor” but among suburban voters.

suburban districts poll to the middle.

it’s taken 10 years for voters to get to like obamacare, and building on it seems much more doable than trying to overthrow the whole system. even if the overthrow *is not actually possible*, it’s bound to scare moderates and independents into holding their noses and voting for trump OR voting cross-ticket and elect the man but deny the senate.

The poisoning of SYG is not only moronic Trumpism but classic scolding liberalism. These poisons combined have made this board not one of our admiration of a radical art rock band, and the many musicians who lived and breathed much more radical life philosophies than an old Vermont senator, but of asskissing the rich and the powerful. A mentality of you can't do this, you can't do that. A distinct and bitter rejection of the ideas of the Youth on the Sonic Youth board. The political discourse on here has the same quality as my boomer relatives on facebook. Completely bereft of ideas, a lack of passion and fire for justice and a rebalancing of power. Just hollow political insider talk and excuses. You guys enjoy being confused about what's going to happen in the political world, continue to be naive about how much this vast inequality will devour us.

i like you logical fallacy of appeal to sonicyouthism

best wishes radicalizing your street block and growing from there

he says from his armchair as the world explodes and the rich fly off to their Elon Musk funded moon colonies

guest is the only person who has made any sort of coherent considered point in the last few pages. symbol man then goes on to accuse a queer person of baiting homophobia and completely removing their agency of thought cause HE'S the rational one and everyone else just has an ideological agenda! This makes me understand more how he cannot understand my points at all also, so that is actually reassuring. He is so constrained to ideology while also trying to reject it. It all ends up landing in the "rational middle", never really standing for anything. Never even attempting to understand things from other people's worldview, and ultimately never truly understanding why someone like Trump can win the presidency. Much easier to write me off as a radical even when I'm making sense and represent the viewpoint of a large amount of people. The people that will fulfill your David and Goliath fantasy of taking down the bad guy. I dunno.

i dunno either, but when your messiah saves us i’ll convert

and like i said, if he wins the primary he’s got my full support

meanwhile, this sort of escapist tantrum is how berniebros damage bernie himself

Oh yes of course it does

This attitude? Not wanting Sanders and Warren to shit on each other?

I’m still voting, I just don’t like the self-destruction.

Didn’t realize not wanting the Dems to be divided was the cause of all the evil in the world lmao

Fuck Bloomberg

I'm cynical that medicare for all, and all these programs wouldn't affect the current costs that we're charged. So we'd be paying in millions upon millions of dollars that won't end up covering as many as it all legitimately should.

medicare is actually very cost effective. expanding it would bring down costs.

it’s not complete however, and many seniors add supplemental insurance.

also, there are many doctors who won’t work with medicare because it pays too little. so something would have to be worked out.

france has one of the best overall healthcare systems in the world, and it’s run by the government and it costs less than it does here. there’s also supplemental insurance for those who want it.

culturally and legally however it would be very hard for us to arrive at the same system. france is very centralized and has a history of being directed from the top. we’re a republic composed of many different states and subcultures and it’s much harder for everyone to fall in line. we tend to believe more in local government. more than france anyway.

the best model for us is probably switzerland, which looks a lot like... obamacare done right (insurance is truly mandatory). as i understand it’s not national but administered by the cantons, much like our states do here. there are subsidies for those who can’t afford. it’s expensive but also provides great quality care—apparently the best doctors in europe go work there. their insurance industry however is tightly regulated, unlike here. obamacare was supposed to cure that but there are still many junk health plans that are utter shit, and the trumpkins want to see more.

see: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ance/index.htm

these are practically fucking scams and republicans love them because it makes their pals money.

see: https://www.policygenius.com/blog/ho...nsurance-plan/

now it would be better and safer if low paid workers could join the expanded medicare instead of falling prey to these bastards.

im not saying the swiss is the best model overall, but culturally and legally we’re closest to it, and it’s therefore more achievable/ closer at hand. meaning we wouldn’t need a revolution to get it—just the house, the senate, the presidency, and the supreme court (yeah, “just” those lolol). and then the states would be the laboratories where it would be put into practice.

I'm forever wondering how it's possible that these prices are/were reached in the first place and if they were actually closer to legit costs and not inflated so much, how the current setup could actually be effective.


I won't deny I could be quite naive on the topic overall though.

there are a bunch of factors piled up one on top of the other but just off the top of my head...

-the uninsured raise costs for everyone else when they can’t pay
-insufficient primary/preventive care raises costs of specialists + procedures down the line
-overuse of emergency rooms over lower cost options, per above
-lack of insurance standards raises the administrative cost for medical practices
-high cost of medical education/debt incentivizes high prices
-cultural tradition of seeing medicine as a moneymaking business not a vocation
-high cost of malpractice insurance in a lawsuit-happy environment gets passed to the patient
-unnecessary procedures to avoid malpractice lawsuits
-unregulated/abusive pharmaceutical prices. often cited as “cost of research” by companies, often patently not (e.g., see cost of insulin)
-chronic diseases like diabetes and heart problems eat a large chunk of resources (again tied to deficiencies in preventive care)
-upfront costs are hidden, even for providers (e.g. xrays/tests in a lab cost less than xrays/tests in a hospital, but they don’t tell you that, and when you ask how much your session will cost nobody has an answer, the surprise! here’s your bill...)
-etc