I love Wire. My band has been playing I Am the Fly for like 8 years now.

i'm surprised that their are so many SY fans who don't like the fall, it's as surprising as not liking the stooges or the VU or something. listen to Hex Enduction Hour and you can see where SY got a few of their ideas.

I don't know pavement very well, so i can't really comment on how they ripped off the fall. But what irritates me and keeps coming on this board are statements like "originality is overrated", "everybody rips somebody else off". Well I think i have to disagree partially. I don't think originality is overrated. Of course everybody has its influences, but i think the real question is, how manifestly you show, that you are influenced by this or that group - unintentionally or not. And based on experience i can say in most cases i don't like these bands. Assumed that i know the "original", of course!

Again, i don't want to accuse pavement of ripping of the fall, it was more a general statement.

I cant stand the sound of the velvet underground.

But nah if you want to get a Fall album it should be Hex Enduction hour, its lyrically amazing, and the thing about the fall not being "musicians" means nothing. When you read a book do you base your opinion of it on how many big words are used? You don't, its the way its told. Also try and get "The real new fall lp" from a couple of years ago, its a goodun.

you ripped off your mommy and your daddy

Slanted and enchanted sounds like The Fall, after that Pavement found their own sound, i know thats already been said but Im concurring for concurrence sake.

You've got to remember Mark E Smith is a tendentious twat, Ive got a theory that most of what he says is said to annoy people I remember he did the singles in select on month and accused every single one of being a rip off of the fall.

The Grotesque sounds a lot like Slanted and Enchanted to me. I relaly like Pavement but Slanted and Enchanted never really hooked me.

The last Fall Album Fall Heads Roll is well good by the way, its really up beat and exciting

totally agree with that wire statement. without wire they would be a shedload of bands doing nothing and britpop would never have happened. wire rule and are totally underrated.

fall albums for novices....
perverted by language
the infotainment scan
fall heads roll

ore the peel session boxset!

yes wire to totally rule. Why do so many people forget wire?

Thanks Paulybee

I will check out those three albums you mentioned.

hex enduction hour, one of the most catchy fall record...
my two cents, sorry

[quote=bytheriver]
You've got to remember Mark E Smith is a tendentious twat, Ive got a theory that most of what he says is said to annoy people I remember he did the singles in select on month and accused every single one of being a rip off of the fall.

/quote]

There is that, this is something that is very true... he has said that about nearly any band you can imagine (including SY, if memory serves)... with Pavement, however, I think he has got a case, especially the first album.

Interesting about the book big word's analogy. but i would say a better analogy is the idea of reading a simple kid's book, or reading da vinci code or whatever. if it's the ABC's musically, it may not go over for some. it's subjective. it doesn't have to be YES either, but it has to be musically entertaining to some. Mark E does not write songs muscially on Malkmus' level. it could be proven, i would think, by just giving each of them a guitar and tell them to play a song or two. Mark E would be lucky to be able to get through one or two, isolated. but Malkmus could effortlessly. the fall is art and style more than anything.

... Right. Pavement are a little above rudimentary rock arrangements. Some occasionally non-rock arrangements (I've heard the odd 7th chord in there), but really not the grand masters of technical innovation or sophistry. The odd bit of twiddly solos in a fairly sloppy pseudo-jazz way. Really nothing that is the world's most exciting thing in terms of sophistication.

The Fall, likewise, nothing to write home about. Apart from cross-rhythms on the vocals - listen to the words, all of them, on Theme from Sparta, He Pep, Ibis-afro man, Smile (&c) - there is a transcendence of conventional lyrics (rarely rhyming) and a more sophisticated interest in using lyrics as a rhythmic battery. I suspect it's entirely uncontrived, but I can't think of anyone else who uses words to such devastating musical effect, and this is without talking about the actual content, which is a different matter.

Generally speaking though, it's fairly pointless to talk about unsophisticated rock band A versus unsophisticated rock band B; that's where it all becomes subjective. But the Fall, more than any other band I can think of, use lyrics in a very adult, very sophisticated way, which more than makes up for their lack of tired rock cliches like 'chops' or solos or whatever.