I like a lot of women who rock, but they pretty much are all just women who want to rock and they don't make a big political statement out of it or make "identity" music. Seriously, "identity art" of any kind is such a lame copout for a lack of genuine creativity that words can't even really scratch the surface.
PJ Harvey
Bardo Pond
Windy and Carl
Boris
Major Stars
Overhang Party

...the list goes on and on. None of these bands are pushing their personal agendas through music, and they all have talented and strong women in their ranks.
I respect them because they are great artists, not because they "had the guts to play rough with the boys." That line is getting tiresome at this point.
I kind of dislike political and issue-oriented posturing in music most of the time anyway, so take my comments with a big old grain of salt if you like.
I just like it when people make music or art for the sheer fulfillment of making great art. Some of them are men and some of them are women.
Big deal.

C'mon Pookie, there are so many things wrong with girlsrockmovie's long post that they are too numerous to address!

On the subject of "Maxim-fed piddle," this movie certainly seems that it will fit that bill itself.

Thanks to all of you have started engaging in a more thoughtful discussion here...I don't mind if people disagree or argue as long as they check their prejudices and idiocies at the door....

For instance, this is a really interesting post, and in fact many of the girls in the movie agree with you. I personally think attention still needs to be paid to the imbalances--for instance, only 22% of musical performers on MTV are women (as opposed to booty-shaking dancers)--but I totally respect women like PJ Harvey and Chrissie Hynde who've said they want to be known as musicians first, women second. I don't think I ever said in my posts, or in the movie, or on our site, that we're only for political women. One of the songs on the soundtrack is by a death metal band called Arch Enemy that features a woman lead singer. You could hardly call her a political hippie songwriter or anything.

Our job as documentary filmmakers was to listen to what the girls were saying and put them on screen. Of the girls we focused on, only one wrote a song about being a woman and wanting to rock. The others just wanted to make music and have fun.

And ultimately, whatever political points we make about women in the movie just came from listening to what the girls and women were saying about what they struggle with. I'm really happy for the girl on here who said no-one has attitude about girls being in bands where she is, that's awesome! Unfortunately, that's not the case for every girl everywhere. Some of it's subtle, and some of the girls in our movie were just told flat out they weren't wanted cause they were girls. The fact is, most of the girls who come to the Camp feel like the woman here who went to Ladies Rock Camp, empowered and suddenly more confident about forming a band. That's just a fact. Some people need different things than others, and that's fine.

How much skin is in this movie?

Not to come off a sexist (which I most certainly will anyway), but we both know that's what put suicidegirls.com on the map.

And we both know (or at least certainly should) that the Girls Rock doc would have never seen the light of day without the Suicide Girls deal on premium cable and that the only reason anyone watches that tripe is for the really soft porn. Guys with tats and piercings watch it to see girls that have also mangled themselves making their "personal statements." Apparently, individulaity can be found with the proper accessories.
A recent study found that half of American young people have tattoos and/or piercings.

Oh yeah, I forgot, porn is "empowering" too according to many people and "reformist feminists" like Camille Paglia.

By the way, have you seen Jesus Camp?
It's a good documentary, and one of the best films of the year in a year that's chock-full of good movies.

And grrls, remember: OWN YR SEXUALITY!

I want to see Jesus Camp.

It's more genuinely frightening than any horror movie.


Bewilderment should come as nothing new to you, Diesel. I get this sense of you as someone who is always asking that question.

Is funny that guy who got caught being a gay preacher who was all anti gay was in that movie.

I was just speaking in general terms; I do not want anyone to think I was criticizing the movie.
I recognize this movie's right to exist.

I watched some clips of Jesus Camp on ifilm once. That's all I'm going to say about that.

All I want to know is what towelie thinks.

I certainly hope not a lot. The girls at the girls' camp here in NY are between the ages of 8 and 18, and from the trailer it looks like the same age range. There is nothing really about the camp experience that really exploits or focusses on sexuality or gender in any way. It really is just about rocking. It's kind of like girl scouts, but more fun (I say that having never been a girl scout so I really am just talking shit).

...except that it is solely for girls...

so is girl scouts, and nobody complains about that.

No, I was pointing out the flaw in yr statement, is all.

well, my response kind of answers that point. girl scouts isn't about "hey, we're girls AND scouts," it's just something that girls do. boys do it too. it's called boy scouts. the fact that it is a rock camp for girls is no different than if it was a rock camp for boys. if there's a basketball camp, generally they're not mixed. they're for either girls or boys. when you're at camp, the focus isn't on being girls who rock, it's just about rocking.

Then turning out to be an annoying feminist who believes they are being oppressed in the music world, though they are creating this oppression in their own minds. I'm not trying to be a dick, but the whole feminist movement in music doesn't make much sense to me. (No, it has nothing to do with discomfort about not being able to "rock as hard.")

word mutha fucka

You lost me here. You're assuming that eight-year-olds who participate are somehow going to be brainwashed into being uber-feminists because the camp is called girls rock camp? That's me trying to guess what your point was. How you arrived at it kind of baffles me. Is your generalization about girls who go to a camp like this? Or is it just about feminists in general?

Nah, you had a good point with the other camps bit, but any way you cut it, feminism in music, especially now, is dumb.

If feminism is overplayed, it can definitely get annoying. I like a lot of things that feminists seem to hate. Like Motley Crue, who are big on strippers and porn (neither of which bother me in any way). I know that by dressing the way I want to dress when Girls Girls Girls hits the stage (my all-girl Crue tribute band, for those who don't know), we will definitely run the risk of being seen as slutty girls who, if we play well, will just be bonus. But you better believe we will have to kick ass to prove doubters wrong. I happen to be up for the challenge and don't particularly care what people think (my shyness and insecurity obviously rising to the surface here.) I have a vision for what I want this band to be, and Motley Crue played up their sexuality, and I intend to do the same thing. So we'll probably be reviled by both feminists and anti-feminists. Go figure.

I think the "reviled" would come from being a motley crue tribute band, if anything. Such atrocious music!

you know you love it.

"Don't go away mad...."

Blech!
Night-night.

Oh shit, my cynicism got busted.

I just felt like playing devil's advocate because this person, girlsrockmovie, is not a regular poster. She isn't an outright spammer either like we get here, to be fair, and I went over-the-top a little. I was actually just about to write a post here where I used the word "cynical" to classify my last post when I revisted the thread and then saw your post.

Let me rephrase...

How many tattoos and piercings are in this flick?

Well, I fall in line with Kierkegaard, reaping the benefits of his wisdom. To clarify, he, however, did live in a time when Women's Rights was referred to as "The Woman Issue" or even "The Woman Problem" and women were struggling for rights. Russia had a myriad of questions to answer: issue of the Serfs and Women's Rights (including the right to own property) and also what the hell the people wanted the government to be. (This is a good part of why Dostoyevsky is unique in fiction). (Ibsen is hip too). France and other European nations paved the way for labor laws, industrial regulation and unions, women's rights, human rights...the list goes on and on...

Kierkegaard fully supported equal rights and the concern at hand which was women's right to vote. But, Kierkegaard was also wary of some eventual aspects of the movement's accomplishment and fruition. Namely, he was concerned that women would take upon the ego and self of men and in the process, lose an invaluable part of their femininity. Kierkeegard, who through Jesus' very-Eastern (actually) philosophy, was expressing what the Taoists did, and that is: The integrity of Yin and Yang should be natural.

i dont CARE that only 22% of musicians on MTV are girls, because 100% of what plays on mtv is SHIT
everyone knows by now (or should , i hope ? ) that its up to you to dig up the good shit , whether the bands are girls singing about girl things, guys singing about guy things , or just people rocking out .

sounds like it is going to be an opinion based rockumentary rather than objective, give this one a miss and hey it probably won't make it to aus anyway, tons of chick bands here or bands with chicks in. one of the pubs has been running a festival for the last decade or so called girl germs which is all ways a kick ass day of rocking out.

maybe where the doco is made and based there are tons of chicks with low self esteem, it is great they can have an outlet like the rock camp and the doco can highlight this and maybe other girls with low self esteem can find out about it and go. but i still won't see the doc, mainly because all of the women i know in the industries are strong and independent, that is music, theatre and film industries.

and the doco is not about women in rock, it is about women who are using an instrument as a therapy by the looks of it. there is a metal band here in my home town which is all chicks and they blow 98 percent of the other bands of the stage when ever they play.

No, not really. This thing is corny and cliche. Girls rock, it's true. Everbody already knows. Riot Grrrl is so 15 years ago.


Yes, we all do.


So GUYS singing is stupid shit now?


Wooooow, you're so fucking cool!


You were looking for 'feedback sounds', so you picked Sugar Kane? Are you fucking stupid?


I am a HUGE Sonic Youth fan. I can bet I know more about them than you. Kim Gordon cared about this kind of stuff when it was RELEVANT, 15 or so years ago, but really, gender is no longer an issue AT ALL.


Way to assume shit. Drugs are bad. We're not against Riot-Grrl-era Kim Gordon, we're against your movie, which has turned up way too late, very rudely, in our forum.


Cheers to Patty as well, for arguing much better than you can. She made me realise that I had come on a little too strong. Sorry to you for that, by the way, wall91. However, you, and your bullshit account can just fuck off, as you're proven to be as ignorant and near-sighted as the stereotypical males you claim to be against.

Woo-urd.

I suppose yr (girlsrockmovie) reason for being here is because yr a true SY fan, what with referring to the song as "Sugarcane," I can tell...

No ins or outs....I'd like to see it.

I'd watch it. I do think the idea is alittle naff for me to be involved in it though. But then I never liked organised camps in general... that and I'm not a chick.

I don't think girls in rock music are disadvantaged either - if anything, quite the opposite. Get a band consisting of all girls, and they get more attention ("Wow, these chicks rock") then a band full of guys, even if they don't happen to be up to the standard of the bands full of guys on the line-up.
Plus, all the manufactured shit that you see on the tv and hear on the radio is mostly chicks. Even though it isn't rock music or whatever, it's still females having a part and not being outcasted for their sex/gender.

Saying all this, I'm not against the film. It can't hurt.

Wow, you actually have more to say than "Feminism can suck my big fat cock"! Amazing!

And yes, I'm sure you do know more about Sonic Youth than I do...and I could really tell by the feminism cock comment. This whole discussion is getting rather hilarious actually. I love how people are against a movie they've never even seen that isn't even really totally finished yet! It's like a fundamentalist christian boycott or sumtin. Lord knows we should all do our best to come down hard on such villainous targets as feminism or little girls who like playing music.

There isn't really any point in addressing yer other stuff, except to say that you conveniently skipped the part where Sonic Youth actually supports the camp right now. Materially and figuratively. You can check out ww.girlsrockcamp.org under "friends" if you'd like. I guess they don't think it was so 15 years ago after all. You should really let Kim know that she's living in the past, I'm sure she'd appreciate the feminism sucks my cock philosophy as well.

Anyway, peace to y'all. I had no idea a movie about girls learning to play music would be so controversial. Next time I'll make a movie about something safe we can all agree on, like the Iraq war or abortion.

I didn't skip that part. I just didn't think it was relevant much. SY aren't the boss of me, however much you think they are. When Jesus comes out and supports this movie, I'll support it.

I see you conveniently skipped the rest of my post, though, right?

How can you not see how hypocritical you are? You're so for this 'girls rock' thing, yet totally against indifference to 'whatever gender is singing, as long as it's good'. You're deluded.

So yes, peace out. Take your piece-of-shit philosophy somewhere else. Girls won. Girls won a long time ago.

of course he does, why else would he come here?



We just don't like people comming here to promote there music/movies etc.



just because we love sonic youth's music, doesn't meen we support EVERYTHING they do, or even like them as people.


"oh look at me i'm soooo kool sonic youth like me and my movie"


just leave us alone!!!!!!, as someone mentioned earlier, we are a family, and we dont like sales people trying to sell us shit whilst we are having a nice chat.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

*gangsta handshake*

Jeh, I'll take ya up on dat handshake, nigga.

Now this is the shit that pisses me off. First off, these girls are of the age where it's their parents sending them to the camp, not poor little girls deciding to try music as therapy for their lagging self-esteem. And as far as the people who decide to go to the camp, myself being one, you know ahead of time that you will be playing on stage at a club at the end of it. The type of girls you are describing would most likely say "I could never do that."

When I got the email about the rock camp that I went to, I was all over it and rushed to get my payment in to make sure it wasn't sold out. Somehow I was misunderstood earlier and labelled this poor shy little girl, probably because I said I never dreamed I'd have a band now. The reason I said that is I'm a 31-year-old married female with a career that I love and have no plans on giving up. I do plan on having a family at some point, and all those things factor in to things. Also add to that that at the time I went to the camp, I'd been playing bass for three months and have never had any sort of musical training. I couldn't tell you what fret was a G without looking at my notebook. I think those of you coming up with this low self-esteem crap should look at where the hell that's coming from. If it were a boys' rock camp would you be saying it's for boys who suffer from psychological problems?


Maybe I was imagining things but I thought there was a sentence there earlier about how much credit they get for that. I can imagine the comments they get. "Wow, those girls are actually good." Actually is one adverb away from a compliment, and you know those comments are made, especially in rock and metal.

You know, the person who made the original post did come off a little bitter and resorted to personally attacking the board, which has obviously caused a little bit of anger/resentment. But I think they were just as shocked as I was at the attitudes coming from a place like this. It brought out feelings in me that I didn't even know I had. Try and look at the big picture and don't take something that is completely positive (rock camp) and turn it into something that it's not.

You've shown to be the most grown-up person in the whole thread. Which makes sense, because you're a grown-up.

Cheers?

get over it, i said something partially positive and alot of my friends close friends are female performer be it music, theatre what ever, give a fuck.... this is all over someone advertising their movie on the board here. if you wanna go to rock camp go to rock camp i couldn't give two shits, if you have fun doing it and enjoy it that is fucking brilliant, if you don't, well you wasted your money. or you could use the money that rock camp cost's for the weekend and get some one on one lessons with a teacher and learn the instrument, you already have the attitude and you like one of the best bands ever so........... i won't be positive next time ill just bag the shit out of it just for the sake of it.

Why? I know girls in bands and they never went to any form of music camp. Neither did I or any of my friends in bands and we still play live. So wouldn't that have something to do with the way certain girls themselves think, rather than what males or anybody else think of them as female musicians?

Anyway, like I said, I'm not against the idea. There's no reason to be against it, none that I can see anyway. But I think some of the reasons behind the camp are alittle bogus.