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-   -   uk vs. us punk? (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=6423)

Genteel Death 04.19.2011 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan
I really dislike this idea that the Stooges and the Velvet Underground (or just about any bands before the Ramones) are "punk". Punk is a label, given to punks by punks. There is no a priori "punk" or "punkness". If you're the Velvet Underground, you probably thought of yourself as art rock. If you're the Stooges then you're a coked out kick-out-the-jams-motherfucker rock and roll band. That being said, you have to leave these bands out if you're talking about U.S. vs U.K. punk.

For me, I'd have to say U.S. punk, particularly early 80s bands, both east and west coast (Void, Black Flag, Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Rites of Spring, etc.). That isn't to say that the U.K. does have their moments: Rudimentary Peni and early Napalm Death. And I'm not the biggest Discharge fan, but saying that Discharge is shit is basically saying that punk is shit. Their influence is unmatched by just about any punk band you can name. Without Discharge, what can be called "punk" today would not exist, even emo.
Agreed about The Stooges and VU. Influences on punk for sure. But I can't listen to them as punk bands because they aren't, after all. They're rock bands which hardy adhered to the DIY ethic, for a start.

keep poppin pimples 04.19.2011 12:38 PM
us is better by far

however the slits are totally better than the stooges

Decayed Rhapsody 04.19.2011 10:51 PM
This has nothing to do with anything, but I just discovered that Scritti Politti didn't suck in the very beginning of their career: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYu_nDFkYFY

The Watcher 04.19.2011 10:52 PM
Heresy
Ripcord
Concrete Sox
Doom
Amebix
ENT
Napalm Death
Electo Hippies
Discharge
Rudimentary Peni

I mean the US had Poison Idea...... but come on.........

jonathan 04.19.2011 11:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
Heresy
Ripcord
Concrete Sox
Doom
Amebix
ENT
Napalm Death
Electo Hippies
Discharge
Rudimentary Peni

I mean the US had Poison Idea...... but come on.........

Never much into Poison Idea but the US has plenty of ripping fucking bands of that caliber. Peni, Napalm Death, Electro Hippies, ENT, Heresy... all sick. For sure, no question. I just can't separate my experience with hardcore from the early American DC and LA scenes. I can definitely do without all of the NY macho bullshit.

But yeah, since we're getting into this realm...
MAN IS THE BASTARD.

jonathan 04.19.2011 11:18 PM
How could I forget about Siege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://youtu.be/XRonZbYL3Yk

jonathan 04.19.2011 11:21 PM
MAN SHUT UP WHAT THE HELL YOU EVEN SAYIN'!

also, Infest.

loubarret 04.20.2011 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan
Never much into Poison Idea but the US has plenty of ripping fucking bands of that caliber. Peni, Napalm Death, Electro Hippies, ENT, Heresy... all sick. For sure, no question. I just can't separate my experience with hardcore from the early American DC and LA scenes. I can definitely do without all of the NY macho bullshit.

But yeah, since we're getting into this realm...
MAN IS THE BASTARD.
Nampalm death is britsh as are the electro hippies as are heresy

jonathan 04.20.2011 10:27 AM
as are Rudimentary Peni and Extreme Noise Terror.

Sorry, my phrasing was weird.

Genteel Death 04.20.2011 11:23 AM
Some of those bands aren't punk either. Anyway, good call on Rudimentary Peni. Big fan here.

pbradley 04.20.2011 11:38 AM
Here in the expat community, I met a British punk rocker. Beside the obvious reservations I have with dealing anyone who still touts "classic" punk rock but I got into a conversation with him about the difference between UK and US punk bands.

My thesis was, basically, that US punk bands tend more to the introspective while UK bands were far more politically-dedicated.

We never got far into a discussion so I don't know if I was talking out of my ass or not.

scratchscrape 04.20.2011 01:07 PM
Americans are the root of all evil.

DeadDiscoDildo 04.20.2011 02:04 PM
WRONG!

Evil is the root of all Americans.

Evil from all the countries over the world thrown into one giant melting pot of corruption and thievery.

The Watcher 04.20.2011 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Some of those bands aren't punk either.

What do you mean.......

Genteel Death 04.21.2011 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
What do you mean.......
Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror aren't punk bands. I'm not taking ''oh but they come from punk'' and all that rubbish for an answer 'cause in that case the Rolling Stones are a blues band.

Dead-Air 04.21.2011 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror aren't punk bands. I'm not taking ''oh but they come from punk'' and all that rubbish for an answer 'cause in that case the Rolling Stones are a blues band.

the rolling stones are a blues punk band in the traditions of pussy galore.

Dr. Eugene Felikson 04.21.2011 05:47 AM
GG Allin

The Watcher 04.22.2011 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Napalm Death and Extreme Noise Terror aren't punk bands.

Oh great here we go with setting parameters on what "punk" is........

keep poppin pimples 04.22.2011 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
Oh great here we go with setting parameters on what "punk" is........


i don't see anything wrong with that. the "punk is just an attitude" types give punk way too much credit by calling whatever they like punk.

don't get me wrong, i like a lot of blatantly not punk stuff in the same way i like punk, and see some kind of connections maybe, but alot things are not punk

The Watcher 04.22.2011 01:04 PM
I'm just unclear as to how some guy can just state like it's undisputed fact that a band like early Napalm Death (Hatred Surge/Scum/FETO era) that was full of punks, played shows with punk bands, wrote songs about social issues, vegetarianism and government control can be considered "not punk" just because it was full of blast beats....... I mean really that just doesn't make any sense to me........

keep poppin pimples 04.22.2011 01:14 PM
yeah i think napalm death count as punk

chrome noise tape 04.22.2011 05:27 PM
 

the ikara cult 04.22.2011 05:32 PM
Bad Brains are the only US punk band that count apart from the Ramones (which im taking as a given), the rest vary from total shit to decent, but almost never better than that. From 1976 onwards i mean

The Watcher 04.23.2011 11:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples
yeah i think napalm death count as punk

I do too bro I do too.......

Genteel Death 04.24.2011 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
I do too bro I do too.......
You're missing the point, so I suggest checking the description of the band on their own website or wikipedia. Cheveu's last record has some songs with almost Vivaldi-like string arrangements. Does that make them a band that plays classical music? Certain parameters exist to give you an idea of what you're listening to. If you have problems with, it doesn't mean you are right.

The Watcher 04.24.2011 08:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genteel Death
Certain parameters exist to give you an idea of what you're listening to. If you have problems with, it doesn't mean you are right.

Look bro, I'm not trying to be a dick here but I'm going not going by internet definitions but rather by general consensus here, same with a band like Assuck, if memory serves me correctly they recorded Anticapital at Morrisound (by Scott Burns no less) and played grindcore, yet they were intrinsically linked to the punk scene in every way. If you went by this sort of musical exclusion process I'm sure bands like Hellnation, Man Is The Bastard, S.D.S. and hundreds of other bands that don't fix exact parameters of punk musically need to be "excluded", although I suppose this sort of mentality is why they didn't particularly mind such exclusions.... so I have no idea why I'm advocating for their inclusion in a scene hell bent on "defining itself".......

atsonicpark 04.24.2011 10:02 AM
two words: pink flag


so, uk.


...Also, I'd pretty much agree that Napalm Death were one of the punkest bands ever, punker than most bands usually lumped with punk, but they're frequently credited with inventing grindcore (which sorta started out as harder-than-hardcore punk), so that makes things tricky in many arguments....

...Interestingly, grindcore can be different beasts depending on the band, and Napalm Death eventually evolved the genre it arguably helped create. I'd say the early Napalm Death wasn't too far removed from hardcore punk at all, despite vocally being a lot more guttural of course... but their later stuff is definitely more... for a lack of a better word.. DEATHY. So, grindcore can mean different things to different people and can be different when it comes to different bands.

Either way, great fucking band Napalm Death is. Consistent.

Genteel Death 04.24.2011 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Watcher
Look bro, I'm not trying to be a dick here but I'm going not going by internet definitions but rather by general consensus here, same with a band like Assuck, if memory serves me correctly they recorded Anticapital at Morrisound (by Scott Burns no less) and played grindcore, yet they were intrinsically linked to the punk scene in every way. If you went by this sort of musical exclusion process I'm sure bands like Hellnation, Man Is The Bastard, S.D.S. and hundreds of other bands that don't fix exact parameters of punk musically need to be "excluded", although I suppose this sort of mentality is why they didn't particularly mind such exclusions.... so I have no idea why I'm advocating for their inclusion in a scene hell bent on "defining itself".......
Maybe you should post that on Terminal Boredom and see the sort of response you'd get. Again, even though ND have strong ties with punk, that's not the first word that springs to mind when you think of their records. The exclusion you talk about isn't something that's ever been a big problem since, as you mentioned earlier on the thread, punks would attend ND gigs, for instance. Same, you know, as when people attend certain shows (see the goths + metal or noise + psychedelia flirtations) because of a shared appreciation of
certain aggression/sounds in music without necessarily sticking to that formula when picking up an instrument. And for fuck's sake, if you call all fast and aggressive music punk, you're simply adding to your own or other people's confusion when making distinctions between bands.
You should leave that to clueless bloggers.

Dr. Eugene Felikson 04.24.2011 11:57 AM

 


Canadian Punk

The Watcher 04.24.2011 01:00 PM
I don't even know what terminal boredom is :(

I just know that I've always considered grindcore to be essentially "punk with blast beats" which is more in line with the punk I listen to (Kaaos, Riistetyt, Asocial, Ripcord, Larm, BGK etc) and that my definitions certainly may not be the status quo, but the status quo of what punk is, is full of stuff I haven interest in.......

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 04.25.2011 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Rick
U.S.A! U.S.A.!

A continuum...

The Wailers
The Sonics
The Fugs
Debris'
The Electric Eels
Crime
Chrome
The Pagans
Nervous Eaters
Vom
Screamers
The Wipers
Black Flag
Minutemen
Really Red
The Freeze
Flipper
Poison Idea
Septic Death
Dead Moon
The Mummies
Thomas Jefferson Slave Apartments
The Motards
The A Frames
The Hospitals
The Intelligence
Functional Blackouts
Home Blitz

The U.K. had some great bands, but the canonization of certain bands and the patriotism of their myopic music journalists make for a glut of overrateds and cashers-in on the seemingly never-ending gravy train. I mean, seriously, how undeserving are The Exploited to be careerists in the punk biz??? (Meanwhile, the best U.K. punk goes largely ignored; e.g. Fuck Off Records, descendents of Desperate Bicycles, etc.)

I actually like Aussie punk better overall than U.K. punk.

half of these are hardcore or just plain "alternative/college rock" so I do believe they are null and void in a debate regarding UK vs US punk

I will put my list

Agnostic Front vs UK SUBS (US wins)
Aus Rotten vs SubhumanS (UK wins)
Caustic Christ vs The Varukers (UK wins)
DEFIANCE vs the Defiant (US wins)
Bad Brains vs CRASS (US wins)
A Global Threat vs the Exploited (US wins)

while I adore UK crust/gutter/chaos/hardcore/street punk, the US really does have the edge, especially from scenes like in Boston/Pittsburg/DC/NYC/LA

The Watcher 04.25.2011 08:34 PM
When it comes to the Bad Brains, they always wins..... Seriously seeing the full lineup about 10 years ago (as "The Soul Brains") was a fucking life altering experience......

Keeping It Simple 04.27.2011 11:52 AM
The reason the UK will always win debates of this ilk:

 

the ikara cult 04.29.2011 02:55 PM
most people who listen to punk as teenagers grow up to eat brown rice and masturbate over tree frogs

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 04.29.2011 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the ikara cult
most people who listen to punk as teenagers grow up to eat brown rice and masturbate over tree frogs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous
half of these are hardcore or just plain "alternative/college rock" so I do believe they are null and void in a debate regarding UK vs US punk
again, I think you are not thinking of actual punks, more so punkish kinda folks. While mohawks and patches are for the youngsters, most punks I know are still quite self-destructive even to a ripe old age. The only real punks who go the brown rice route are those damned anarcho-animalistas ;)

BakaGaijin 04.29.2011 11:54 PM
U.K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZzM4s0Hgs

the ikara cult 04.30.2011 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakaGaijin

The Exploited are the exception that proves the rule. They are absoutely terrible.

BakaGaijin 04.30.2011 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the ikara cult
The Exploited are the exception that proves the rule. They are absoutely terrible.

I completely agree about The Exploited. That clip was merely a piss take.

Genteel Death 04.30.2011 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the ikara cult
The Exploited are the exception that proves the rule. They are absoutely terrible.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

SuchFriendsAreDangerous 04.30.2011 12:53 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genteel Death again.


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