Yes and no. Does buying records necessarily even support the band, especially through major labels? How many brick and mortar stores are not just corporate scum? Its like Dead Prez said, "They sell our tapes like dope"

I think steve albini already elaborated quite well how horrifying a vampire major label and mainstream music is. The best potential was in the early 2000s when the major distributors broke off the big label monopoly when they realized they could make money even if they distributed small numbers of units from independent record labels and even DIY artists. For the distributors, every flipped unit counts and that access put a lot of previously hard to find music on the shelves of even big box chain retail outlets. It was like Nevermind wave times a million.. This was in the brief moment before the wave crashed and receded, and in its wake now we have the internet music industry, which is just as cut throat and scandalous, but in its way, also provides an even BETTER way for artists to make their own money directly. Even radiohead is in it now, making they money DIRECTLY, fuck the label.

So with downloading, I say fuck iTunes. Download your tracks that you buy directly from the indy labels I'm sure most of you listen to and support, and the rest, pirate that shit, destroy the bogus capitalist process! The only way to support a band directly is the old fashioned way, go to shows and buy merchandise.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Glice again.

Yes, but you're missing the point entirely.

actually, i wasn't commenting on your point. just pointing out some irony.

Eh, a few random thoughts...
I've heard many bands say that records now exist only as advertisements for the live show -- perhaps it's always been that way, to certain people? I dunno. I always value hearing a good new album, though it seems like that time of "buying a CD that I'm not too sure about but forcing myself to listen to it a thousand times because I spent a bunch of money on it and then realizing 'HEY! THIS ACTUALLY HAS SOME COOL SONGS ON IT!" is gone. That was always a weird, cool feeling! I mean, honestly, ALL music has something good about it, if we're being specific, I mean even the worst song of all time probably has a catchy rhythm or something. I just love music. Maybe too much? Maybe that's why I'm kinda exhausted by it. More on that later. But it's kinda like a relationship... well, it is a relationship. But imagine a girlfriend you're really obsessed with, and you love everything about her. And maybe you gotta kinda set her free for a while... when she comes back, you'll appreciate her more. Or whatever. More on that later, yeah..

But, uh, I still download a lot, I guess -- I've always bought (and sold... and sometimes, buy again and then resold and then bought back for the third time) a lot, too. It just depends on my mood. I guess the one thing with downloading is I don't feel the "have to have it right now!" thing when I want to hear a band/album, because we have the conveniance of EVERY ALBUM EVER MADE being a click away. In a way, that takes away some of the discovery in life, some of the fun. But it also makes us more aware, knowledgable of even more in life, too...

But yeah, I dunno, something overcomes me sometimes and I just really want the "Actual" copy of stuff, even if I've already downloaded and burnt it -- or I could do that just as easily -- and filed it away. Ultimately, what the internet has taught me isn't just that everything is now really easy to access, it's taught me that there is SO MUCH OUT THERE, so much to consume ... we could live 10 lifetimes and still never consume all the cool shit that's out there. ... At the same time, I am currently a bit exhausted with all the movies/music/comics/video games/etc I have warped my mind with. I downloaded the most music when I was 13-18, when I didn't have a job and so on.. of course. Now that I have to deal with "LIFE ISSUES"(TM), sometimes I just don't get around to listening to that "ultrahip new record" for a few weeks. Oh well.

Now, speaking as a "musician" or whatever (and I'm using the term loosely, I don't take myself seriously enough to label myself that), I've "made music" for.... 13 years now... and uh, I've always, from day one, given it away for free. Just the joy of making it, the joy of others hearing it, inspires me to continue. I've made some money doing it, but all that money has went right back into equipment and... well, actually, I've lost more money than any I've made. So, yeah. My thing has always been this. I offer all my shit for free, and if someone feels the urge to donate some money, then cool. And I also try to make a physical copy available for a while in case someone actually wants to buy it, too. So, that's cool. I don't expect anyone else to have that policy, it's just my own personal philosophy.

I sincerely sympathize with bands who are touring right now, with gas being $5 a gallon, and the economy hitting rock bottom a few years back. All the small labels that stop -- remember a few years ago when EVERYONE had a label? Wow... so, yeah, I sympathize with these people, and I try to help them out in any way I can usually. The sad thing is, I can't help everyone all the time -- that's been the most difficult thing for me to face in my life. The fact that I can't make everyone happy at the same time.

So, yeah, I dunno. Downloading music has been one of the greatest things ever, for me, because it has propelled me into going to shows and discovering MORE music and ... just on and on and on and on.... but right now, I kinda just want to slow down and go back to how things used to be, personally... I have been purchasing a LOT more cd's lately (and I've also been buying tons of comic books/graphic novels, that's for another thread though) -- though admittingly, I haven't had the time to play all of them -- and I have only been downloading stuff that isn't really "available" (like the new Toddle). I'm going back to that "warm up to a record slowly" thing, I even bought a few blind purchases of musicians I'd never even heard of, who knows if I'll dig em?

I guess when I was younger, I wanted to be older. Now that I'm older, I want to be younger. Life moves way too fast for me. I can't keep up, honestly. I will never own a cellphone. I don't identify with anything that's really all that modern -- hell, music downloading is like 14 years old by now, at least! So, I am trying to slow down a bit myself. Stopping and smelling the roses.

Anyway, if any of the CD's I've bought recently really suck, maybe I'll try to sell them on here for a few bucks. That might be fun.

God, I just miss all the zines and startup labels and the times when everyone had a band and everyone was MAKING SHIT. We live in a time when EVERYTHING is SO easy to make -- you can make your own films/comics/music/etc with just the help of a little shitty Dell computer and a freeware program... but I think the rest of life is moving way too fast for a lot of people. It makes me feel weird.

I live secluded, in the woods. I recently got a car, after having to walk to work -- an hour, at least -- for 5 months. As soon as I got it, I burned the roads up, hanging out with friends and playing shows and doing all sorts of insane shit for like a month there. Now I'm back to sitting at a lonely desk, in a house with no one in it, about .5 miles from the road, down in a valley. It's good conditions to put on a new record and discover something again. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've searched the internet and bookmarked like 50 new things to check out later, in just an hour. My mind is ALWAYS working like that. But I'm trying to slow it down, if only for 40 minutes, to listen to this CD and take it in and really enjoy it. As long as it's not the Mars Volta, I'll find something to enjoy about this tranquility.

The older I get, the more aware I am of life and death. Like, I'm going to die. It's not going to be too long from now, you know? I mean, really. Same goes for lots of people here. I remember distinctly, once upon a time saying, "I WANT TO HEAR EVERY ALBUM EVER MADE!" Then it became "i WANT TO HEAR EVERY GOOD ALBUM EVER MADE!" Then: "I WANT TO HEAR ALL THE ESSENTIAL ALBMS EVER MADE!" Now it's "I want to hear a few thousand albums I love, over and over again." I really thought I had time, at some point, to hear every album ever made. I was seriously downloading thousands of albums by bands with "A" names on soulseek. I would sit there for hours and absord.. uh... A and Aa and Au and ... uh, A Perfect Circle... .. and uh.. yeah. Whatevever. You get my point. Now, I'm like, fuck, I have thousands of CD's I will never listen to, why not pair it down to the stuff I will listen to, no point in being some kind of ridiculous archivalist or something.. you can't take all that stuff with you when you die, so ... yeah. I dunno. I'll probably delete all this later.

Well I moved back in with my mom, but she's never here because she's with some new guy, so I'm usually here by myself.

My ... "girl friend"... uhh ... my ... friend who's a girl who has sex with me sometimes ... lives about a minute away down the road. Which is weird, since this "neighorhood" only has about 12 houses around it, at least for about 10 miles in both directions!

Anyway, thanks for the post, nice to know someone can relate!

"I don't need to listen to all the noise albums ever made." Haha. Funny/true. Sadly, when you honestly can't differentiate one noise act from another -- from another, from another, from another -- when listening to a compilation of nothing but noise artists, that's kinda sad. Though I don't think it's ever really been about creating cohesive albums, at least not for most noiseicians. But you're right. It's not something I ever thought about, really, but yeah, noise is something I haven't been into for a while. I'm like "man, I've listened to the Merzbox in its entirety three times in my life, what more do you want from me?" haha. Not really, but I will say, that when ANYTHING -- a dating relationship, a book, etc -- becomes a chore, it's actually probably time to move on. I'm really bad about giving up on things/people, as I'm pretty patient and tolerant, but I'm also becoming increasingly aware that life's too short to waste time, too. But, then, of course, some things actually get better if you can get through it. This is the constant headache of my life.

please post more adam, I miss your thoughts and relate to alot of them.

Maybe except the way I've approached marketing my music but that's been changing.

(selling vs giving it out for free)

I have a long winded post but im too tired to really sit down and crank it out.

Yeah, I work 3rd shift, and I don't see many people because most "Normal" people ain't up at 4am every night, haha. I live pretty much 20 minutes from EVERYONE who lives in town, I am right on the edge of 2 towns actually, it's sorta weird. But all my "Friends" live about 20 minutes away. So, I usually go to the other town, the one with no friends in it, when I have to do shit. Hah. I like to just sit and read and listen to techno most days. Do a lot of drugs. You know. I realized recently I haven't went a day in 4 years without doing some kind of drugs.

Hey, Disco, yeah, I don't really get online much lately. But I'm glad my posts could be of some use to someone! Haha. I often relate to and enjoys yours, too. I relate to a lot of people of people's on here, I have been on many boards, but this one in particular, I've been posting on for like... jesus, 10 years combined, now? Fuck. So, I feel like I really have some, like, true e-family and shit, here. Haha. Wicked.

I articulated earlier I was speaking specifically about "out" music for lack of a better (independent?) term, but I wouldn't hold anyone to retain everything that was said in this thread....... And when I said recor stores I'm specifically talking about independent record shops that stock cool music........

I'm not much of a party guy....... :(

To answer the question...same as 2006. Terrible shitty attitude ha ha fucking haaaa. Flashback to 06..."HUW CHABIB HAS THAT NEW THURSTON SHITE LEAKED YET OR WHAT???".

I'm off to sit in the sun in my pruned garden to drink a shit load of lager/cider. Just like I used to in 2006, and post here about it (different garden mind). lols to the maximum ability. lols to the maximummm

And this is why you must be my bride.

But on topic for a moment - I think this is a point where downloading relates to a sort of aesthetic of appreciation, rather than an aesthetic of music itself. With literature, even knowing a handful of publishing industry sorts, semi-professional writers, full-time academics [etc] - there simply doesn't exist, in the written word, the notion of scrabbling around for the indie writer who's doing something beyond their position. I mean, publishers and so on do find new writers, but there's not a groundswell indie market from the audience up in the same way that music has. The idea of finding that obscure band who are overlooked happens so, so much less in writing. I know of a few writers who are better than where they are, professionally - our own Jenn, for instance - but I could probably list 20 bands none of you will ever hear who are awesome. Not because I look deeper, but just because they don't record or get further than local appreciation, or only happened for a short time.

What I'm saying, I suppose, is in relation to my own thing with both writing and listening... Ok. One of the things I like about classical music, whether that means relatively new stuff like Pickard or much older stuff like Downland is that before it gets to my ears, it has a series of filtration processes. By the time it gets to my ears, lots of people have decided it's fit for public consumption. Which is where radio functions as a great equivocator, for me. One issue I have with downloading is that I simply can't be fucked - good stuff will find me. I might get on my high horse when something truly exceptional is forgotten or not thought about much - Datblygu, for instance - but generally I'm happy waiting to see how I feel about something a few years down the line. With Datblygu, it was a good 5 years of listening before I realised that they really were a band worth listening to and shouting about.

In that context, what worries me about download culture as a general aspect of listening culture is that desire to shout about things instantly. If a band is worth my attention, they'll find me. Death Grips, for instance, are [is?] pretty great, but it took a few mates saying 'whoah - this is a bit good' before I could be arsed to listen. If I spent all day listening to all the things that people are shouting about - given the broad portfolio of places I go to for music (loads of blogs, a few forums, some orthodox news outlets, radio etc) - I'd never have time to do anything else (like read, wank, meet people, practise music, wank again). I'm happy for people to feel differently, and feel like the unheard-of music proselyte, but for me I'm happy waiting. Should I have listened to Froberger before just now? Yes, on the basis of that; but it ultimately doesn't matter. I don't define taste, and neither do I want to.

I've downloaded 2.3 GB today, according to my BitTorrent client. I'm not against the act of downloading by any means in certain circumstances. I download almost exclusively live recordings of independent origin, and out of print records, very rarely i go for rips of an easy-to-find official album, though i admit i'm guilty of that sin. Since i don't spend too much time in front of the computer, only sporadically, i tend to seek out kind of rare stuff related to bands i like rather than something i'd be able to find physically without too much effort.

Respecting the artists that made the music i enjoy has great importance to me, thus i believe it's fair to support them in all their endeavours, and i try to. No matter if the biggest chunk of record sales money might be going to a corporation if they are affiliated with one, having the facility to just grab and run doesn't really justify taking at least a penny away from what they may be gaining if i happen to download a copy of their album. If you've worked on something, you gotta get money in exchange for what you've done, even if what they give you for your effort doesn't really make it square, all things considered. I also have to say i appreciate the material aspect of records in general, an album can be a work of art somehow, not exclusively in terms of the music it contains. Plus, i find it more enjoyable to listen to music on a decent stereo system, rather than through computer's speakers or in a portable device that plays audio files in low-quality (most i-pods and the like don't play lossless audio, right?).


One-sided point of view here. I bet most professional musicians in this day and age, are still and will continue to be against the idea of getting their music downloaded by the masses, without getting nothing in exchange for it, not even the possibility of controlling the way they'd like to promote it and make it available (already a touched subject judging by some posts in this thread) . James Hetfield didn't become more of an idiot than he already (probably) was when he first expressed his concerns about file-sharing in the Napster era. I'm aware Metallica is an easy target to bash in this board, so i'll throw another example: If that were to be considered as a truth, then that would mean bad news for Marc Ribot. And even then, i would bet lots of leechers are bigger idiots than the bands they're ripping off, so that would send the notion that somehow downloading has value as an intellectual thing, right into the shitter.



I'd consider that a really odd statement. Fuck it. It wouldn't matter if the biggest genius making music today would hypothetically say that, it still sounds to me as if they are lowering an album to pretty much the same level a flyer has in the scheme of things. I can't agree with that. If that were the one and only function of a record, then it would have sense to just release it exclusively on the towns they're touring or fucking forcing bands to tour the whole world over in order to get exposure, which sounds nuts. The contrary (touring to promote the record) seems more reasonable. Since the vast majority of bands i love have never visited my town, and likely never will, i think it's obvious to me, especially considering the globalization, that a consequence of a tour is the spawning of a possibility that your music will get to some ears in far away places somehow, considering that no band can take their act to everywhere in the globe. Agreeing with that concept of what a record is and living in accordance with it, would limit my experience of listening to music to Los Tigres Del Monte, El Grupo Ronco, and all that horrible crock of shit that passes as música popular mexicana these days. Oh my god, that would be so grim.

I think hbj makes some excellent points above - it's not exclusively an issue of theft, the concept of an album in itself is still really important as an idea for listening that people are losing. Ask my drummer, he'll rant until the cows come home over the notion that many bands feel compelled to fill 80 minutes of a CD these days, and are using it poorly. It's only partly in regards to an LP (you gotta flip it to absorb it) which is not automatically true but the idea of going out to a record store, deciding which record you can buy, going home and listening to it, reading the liner notes (in a lot of cases reading the thank you list for your next band to check out), these are really important things that are being replaced with a playlist and a shuffle button. It takes any element of excitement to it away, and shit, even an element of danger. Instead of having to walk into some scuzzy punk store looking for a record at 14 you're now finding a torrent and while it's downloading reading the wikipedia article on Black Flag, and just like everyone else on the Internet youre automatically an expert....... This has nothing to do with royalties, and everything to do with people being fucking falses......... I think I mentioned this in another thread but I read an interview with Prurient a while back where he said that bs was really proud to appreciate music become the Internet became commonplace and in fact I 100% agree, memories for Neville buying (ironically) Ride The Lighting on tape while mom "tsk'd" behind me about how he didn't want me listening to records where everything was about death, or getting my first issue of MRR and just being overwhelmed by how much I didn't know about everything, or waiting for the mail to arrive and hoping that the 7" I ordered arrived (and wasn't a dud) are way more important than finding that awesome 4 gb torrent of every song by every bad you just heard about....... Well yeah it's not really relevant anymore but it's so crucial to what makes music so special........ It actually kind of sucks that this is something that we're losing with technology.........

I think it's perfectly fine. I seldom buy music these days sans select few artists I follow closely who seldom release stuff anyway, and the random weird record I'll come across like three times a year that I've "just gotta have". Most music really isn't worth buying. I'm one of those that, honestly, think music is cool but as a whole it pretty much sucks. Same goes with most art. It's 2011 and virtually everyone wants to be an amateur artist of some sort and there is absolutely no shortage of absolute shit out there. I doubt I bought 5 albums so far this year. Really though, I haven't downloaded many either. Also, also, also, I fall under that school of thought that people shouldn't be denied music just because they can't afford to pay for it. It's just entertainment. Shit, I saw a Black Flag cd a few years ago marked 18.99. What a crock of shit. Any band worth a damn will make their coin touring , followed by developing a following of some sort, followed by fans buying stuff. There is just so much music out there these days and it is so incredibly accessible and expecting one to buy everything they want to hear is just insane to me. Do I feel like it is stealing? Of course it is, but I don't follow that "every time you download an album you are taking food out of the mouths of an artist" shit. If you can't survive on making music alone, find a part time job. Sure it sucks, but it's not 1969 anymore. I doubt it'll ever be like that again. Sometimes I'm wrong...who knows.

From the standpoint of someone who has played in a few bands I doubt anyone doing weird shot is making a living at it so the idea of "taking food out of their mouths" is a bit of an oversimplification. Look at Yes for example, they went broke buying Wakeman all those synthesizers and fortunately reaped the rewards (rightly so because Yes are fucking awesome) but no one has the money for this sort of thing. I'd like to think that, for a lot of bands I love me buying their record at least helps keep them in the black, it's actually pretty scary to see how easily you can find ANY record you want with a google search and 2 minutes of waiting from rapidshare. I'd like to think that by actually purchasing albums when Mark McGuire needs a new effect pedal he's not putting it on his credit card or or the dude in Portal can afford to have his amp retubed. Silly stuff man, or is it? I mean Sonic Youth can afford their mortgages and whatnot but that's becoming a genuine rarity......

Well, Greg Ginn needs the money to host his 80 cats.

Also, I kind of agree with the last sentiment which someone earlier touched on, if you expect to make money from an underground music band then there's fat chance of that. Downloading music is now the way a lot of music is distributed and that's not going to change, so if someone wanted to live as a musician they'll have to take that into account and not complain when things don't quite go their way. They could quite easily get a job to make ends meet and not rely on creative endeavours to provide that.

Saying that though, I still support buying merchandise, seeing shows and buying albums. Though I'd buy it with the mindset of knowing that the artist is secure enough to continue making music and not just so they can gain significant financial value.

You know, my grandpa always said "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem".......

I'm not trying to turn this into an intellectual argument; I'm definitely not saying that downloading music makes you an intelligent person or whatever. I'm just saying that everything about the way music is being distributed is changing. I'm not even really advocating one or the other in this debate, only that greater forces are at work here and if you're still stuck in this paradigm of labels, and traditional distribution as a band you're going to get left behind. The opportunities for bands to capitalize on how music is distributed, as well as the implications for how that effects the musical reproduction process have not been explored.

Innovative bands, I think, are going to try and undermine the album concept, as well as exerting tremendous amounts of control over the reproduction process. I'd really like to have a band that has two entirely separate existences: one live and one recording. How one makes money in all of this is a mystery, but it might be that the time of money making is over, and as Kinnik said in that cluster fuck of a post he deleted, that rock and roll traditions in this respect have been extinguished. Personally, I find this to be liberating, but I can see some of you don't quite feel the same way about this. I feel like this sentiment in the music world where people don't really know which way is up just means that it is time to define a new paradigm.

Maybe that's idealistic, but I have yet to see a band, sans Odd Future, really embrace the possibilities of the internet as distribution. It's something I'd like to see more of, personally. I mean, really the whole globalization thing is a really interesting thing about this "new paradigm." It's amazing how far a band can travel without ever leaving the bedroom.

''It's amazing how far a band can travel without ever leaving the bedroom.''
Funny you, of all people, say that. A huge amount of bands can't even afford to regularly tour abroad.

Ann ashtray,
Every tried to "make your coin touring" a huge country like the USA with gas at $4.00/gallon?


Right.
Moving on.

And what of all the depressing one man bands out there? They are too grim to even exist on our ethereal plane, yet those tascam 4 tracks aren't going to pay for themselves......

Not really sure what you mean by that, Genteel.

Yes, one man bands are totally depressing, but it's their own fault for failing. It's a cut-throat world out there, you know. Fortunately, tascam four tracks are available to anyone with $25 and access to craigslist: the strong can survive and the rest can whither away into obscurity.

Oh, you mean like what I have been doing for longer than you have been on this planet?

Jesus, you are a fucking self-righteous windbag.

One day Kinnik, I hope you find the meaning you are so desperately searching for.

Have you thought about gardening?

I try and make something that is a beautiful physical object that someone would want to pay for at a time when no one wants to pay for anything, but to say that I somehow owe society something is simply ridiclous. By that logic, anyone pursuing any kind of business venture owes society something for the opportunity to try that venture out.

People buy enough of my records to make the next batch, which is fine by me. But saying "go find a patron" is incredibly laughable and simplistic.
I have sunk many tens of thousands of dollars into this for decades, and gotten back maybe a little less than one half of one percent. I don't think there is anything wrong with aspiring to a somehwat higher return, especially if I try and make it worth the consumer's while.

I wasn't whining about anything. I was calling you out for being a condescending prick in your state-sponsored ivory tower.

It's not something I necessarily agree with, but I think what the artists who have said that are actually saying: We don't make money from record sells, we make money from the live show, so the record -- in a monetary sense -- becomes the "Advertisement" for the live show.

Naw. Gardening is awesome.

It sure beats the shit out of wasting the whole day lambasting people for something they feel passionate on a message board.

You're just jealous.

Yes, you're right, I was being sarcastic. I'm gathering from yours and some others' posts that having the decency of trying to keep the standards high is an obsolete mindset. A lot of rubbish, basically. You might settle for accepting the existence of a finished product only in the form of download, but to myself, and tons of other people, artwork, packaging and format are important facets that give an indication of how seriously you take your craft. Things that cost a lot money in themselves, if you are aiming to use quality materials. This without mentioning several other things that you'll need to find funds for in order to get you going.

Unless your ''oh so rebellious'' posting-style (from home, mother of all ironies) wipes
off the commerce this society still relies onto get the wheel moving, things don't create themselves for free. Punk or not punk.

I feel like there has always been a plethora of shit. Just because you make it to record doesn't make it good. Consult any $.99 bin at a record shop for proof.

I hear what you're saying though. I think these types of things are important, but they are by no means how I judge the quality of the music. At the same time, I've never been one for aesthetics in this field. In bands, I'm never the guy that makes the fliers, or the album covers or t-shirts. I put all my focus on the music and I tend to take it pretty seriously. I guess this is part of the reason why I find the way music is going to be liberating. At the end of he day, I get to focus on what I enjoy doing, which is making music and I don't have to worry about all the other stuff that comes with it.

Kinnik. You're jealous of other people and the meaning they are able to attribute to their lives. No matter how vapid, or "false", their identities might be, I think you prove to everyone that it is certainly better than nothing.

HAAAHA! Also, I like your dog picture.

Oh Come On! Put It Back Up!

As if on cue, The Wire has this interview with Chris Cutler (of Henry Cow) about downloading and its effects:

http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/6715/

I should point out that Cutler is responding to pomo princess Kenneth Goldsmith's article about filesharing: http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/6445/, where he states that:

How boring!

I respect that, and I agree that not everyone makes music with an aesthetical view on how it should be presented, but that attitude contrasted with others, artistically, even before the music industry itself existed. My point is that as bad or good a musician you are, if you make your music commercially available, you should expect revenue if people are downloading
it. It doesn't matter if your music is crap or not. If you're not being given something for free, but you still decide to take it, you are stealing it, thus contributing to a culture unable to help out those whose artistic merit really deserve further investigation and support. I feel ambiguous towards the idea that someone shouldn't expect to make a career out of it. That seems to ignore the fact that playing music to some is a vocation. You deny that to peoplewhose main purpose in life is to produce music, and end up with the mindset of a fascist. Sure, in the current economical climate it's easy to think that being a musician isn't hard graft, but then why should we expect music to exist if we refuse to help out with its development?

Err, what if one enjoys the process of creating those things? Based on your ramblings, you don't seem like a creative type at all. And isn't a rejection of "pointless formalism" one of the cornerstones of pomo ideology that you so adamantly reject?

Wow. This thread took a turn for the insipid troll.

Cutler couldn't be more spot on if he tried to.