What's the deal with energy here ? I find it suspect when people bring physics into it and try to explain religious stuff... when it has nothing to do with it...

I'd say physics have a lot to do with the existence of God actually. They're fixed laws that come out of absolutely nowhere. They change throughout space, true, but they change according to arch-laws. Seems a little bit, well, completely impossible. When I say "an architect must have designed them," I'm not ignoring the abilities of science. I just don't think science will ever be able to discover where science's second highest law (physics) came from. When I think of the laws of physics, there is no doubt in my mind as to the existence of God.

i can't decide whether i'm atheist or agnostic

You do NOT have to beleive in a hell to beleive in a heaven. Jews do not believe in hell, but they believe in heaven. Jews beleive everyone will go to heaven and that there is no permanant abode for the evil and wicked. "Hell" is a purely Christian theory.

I think, by definition, that would make you agnostic, right? If you can't decide? Or is that the joke:) ?

Just decide whether you're a sheep or a human with a will & a mind and you should be okay.


It's Lundeberg (Helen) or Ljungberg (Freddie), for one thing & something tells me you'll end up screaming at the wall like Camus. Find it "suspect" all you want, but the facts are that the core truths of physics aren't really theoretical, & although quantum physics raises more questions than answers in some regards, Relativity proves God's existence in many ways.

When Newton first formulated his world-changing laws of motion ushering in the Industrial Revolution, Science felt like it had Nature licked. Nietzsche echoed that "God is Dead." Then a British geologist named John Michell came along about a century later & postulated black holes & then in the early 20th century came the absolutely stunning revolutions in our approach with Einstein who formulated Natural Laws that, unlike Newton's, also worked in a vacuum & can be applied everywhere throughout the universe. But the theories also raised many questions again. From his work, Schwartzchild & Bohr & many others went on to more wondrous discoveries, but no one has ever or will ever stumble upon a unified theory that unites Einstein's Gravity with the other forces like electromagnetism & the strong & weak nuclear force. Gravitrons seem to be the area right now where we are slowly learning more; in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead. This truth, that God is easier to behold now due to modern physics than ever before in history, is quite ironic considering the general level of consciousness & the intelligence of the average person on the planet and perhaps one fine day, the political philosophers will pay for their crimes.
The future of the Earth depends on many things, but perhaps most chiefly, the quality of our educations will play the most important role.

thanks everythings a bit clearer now

Sheol, my man.

I'm the "Sheol" Man.

Also, people who believe they will go to heaven after they die may or may not be perturbed by the idea of others going to hell. They might have freinds who do not share their faith who they may beleive will go to Hell for not accepting Christ or whatever the reason. This could make them very uncomfortable. I know if my friends would go to a horrible torturous pit of despair and darkness for all eternity while I'm sitting up on a nice, warm puffy cloud would rip my heart in twain. But then again, what if we knew Hitler, Mussolini, Jeffrey Dahmer, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Osama Bin Laden and all these other disgustingly evil and hateful, violent people were to go to hell, it make us all feel a lot better. So the theories of who would go to hell and who would go to heaven really don't mean a whole lot to most people. Most people believe that if you are kind and good natured (no matter what faith you may belong to) and you live your life properly (according to our human laws rather than the religious scriptures) you will be rewarded in the afterlife. It is only a minority of fanatically religious people who blindly think that their faith is the one true faith and that all other people will go to hell if they don't accept this "one true faith".

That's actually not true at all. Christianity is actually founded on the idea that living a good life gets you NOWHERE whatsoever. It's the fanatics that have turned it around. Even a cursory reading of what Jesus said in the Gospels demonstrates that being morally upright is, in the end worthless in God's eyes (as well as completely impossible).

And it's not a matter of "if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell", though it's been turned into that. It's "Hell is a place for people who don't want to be with God." So obviously, if someone doesn't want to be with God, that's where they would go (assuming Christianity were true).

As far as who it would make me happy to see in hell? The answer is absolutely no one. To be honest, and I'm not trying to be controversial, if I died and woke up in heaven, it would break my heart with joy to see Hitler there too. But that's not to say that he wouldn't be changed. Or that everyone else there (including me) wouldn't be too.

What Im saying acousticrock87 is that all religions claim to be the right religion. So waht I am saying to those people, that althoygh they have the right to believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong, without any proof that their belief system is the correct one, they are all wrong!!!!!!!!

We have absolutely no way to proof that Islam is the one true religion, we have no proof that Christianity is the one true religion, we have no proof that Judaism is the one true religion, we have no proof that Hinduism is the one true religion, we have no proof that ANY religion has any merit to the world whatsoever!!!!
Chrsitianity:
You want to believe that Jesus healed people with diseases by merely touching them and using no medicine? Fine. You want to believe Jesus walked on water with no physical support? Fine. Yopu wna tot believe Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven? Fine
Judaism:
You wan to beleive that Jesus WASN'T the messiah for all mankind and that the Jewish messiah is yet to come? Fine.

Islam:
You want to believe that jesus was a prophet of God, but not the messiah? Fine. You wan to belive that Muhamed was the last and Final Prophet of Allah and was come upon by tow angles who washed his heart to absolve alkl sin form it and he lead the Muslims ina holy war that leaves yr religion as the one true faith? Fine.

Hinduism:
You want to believe that the universe is controlled by many gods, some who have Elephant heads and some that have many arms to smoke marijuana with? Fine.

All religion is protected under FAITH. Faith is something that we believe in but CANNOT EVER BE PROVED!! Anyone can believe in anything that they want, Im just saying that without proof, you are technically wrong!!!!! It's like claimng that orange juice can cure brain cancer. But without running any scientific test to conclude any results, you are wrong!!!! Religion is the result of widescale ignorance and incomprehension of the universe at large. I'm not saying that a higher power does not exist, Im just saying that there is no way we could ever know with our tiny little brains what God is or how it works. People organized religion because things happened around themmin their environment, to their people and had no understanding of biology and physics and chemnistry and thought that an unseen being must have done it for some reason. And if there really is only one true faith, then why hasn't God revealed Itself to the whole world and demanded that they practice this religion and all this other stuff?

The debate over the existance of god has been around since the beginning of human history. The debate will always go on, like it should, but it will ultimately end inconclusively. We just have no real way of knowing the existance of god. It....just....isn't....possible. It's just one of those things that will be shrouded in doubt and mystery for all eternity like:
"where did the universe come from?"
"why do we exist?"
"why do bad things happen to good people?"
"what's in MacDonald's secret sauce?"
"who shot J.R.?"
"who shot Kurt Cobain?"
"where's IS the beef?"
"what did ever happend to Baby Jane?"

We'll never know the answers to these questions. But we can always debate them. But without ANY proof thay are all just mysteries and without ANY proof, all theories are just as worthless as any others.

It's all pretty simple. If you die with fear then your body decomposes in the ground & its energy is redistributed that way. In the case of cremation, (before some smart ass pipes up) the corpse's energy is transformed into ashes & most of the energy is burned off into the atmosphere as heat energy.

If one dies without fear, then the cultivated soul is transformed into another form of energy. I, unlike a "holy man", would never pretend to be able to tell you any more than that.

Dying without fear is nearly impossible, thus most people rot in the ground when they die. There have been studies done that prove that Tibetan monks can alter their brain waves at will & where a monk in deep meditation can hear a shotgun blast go off right next to them without their brain waves being altered one bit. Contrast this with most people who get the willies if a bee even flies to close to them.

Humans have the potential of a will to overcome fear. Animals are instinctual, their fear is programmed involuntarily & so they cannot ponder their own deaths consciously.

This is what I meant, touch me i'm sick, by "decide if you are a sheep or if you are a human being." My knowledge is nothing special, as I've known all of this since I was in high school & none of you who are having these questions have any excuse for not knowing all of this already.

I don't beleive in God, really (I'm open to the possibility, but without "knowing" I can;t beleive) but if God were to turn out to be a real entity, I would be very interested in being in God's presence. I would have many, many questions for God.

Hell isn't really a place for people who don't wanna "hang out" with God, it was meant to be a place for those who openly rejected the laws that God gave to man to live life properly. If you murder people wrongly, you go to hell. If you steal, you go to hell, etc. It's not like the section of a bar for the people who don't drink or a section of a restaurant for the people who don't smoke. Hell is punishment.

Also, why would you be happy to see Hitler in heaven? He tortured, mudered and experimented on millions of people for no good reason what so ever!!!! If anyone were to go to hell it would have to be people of Hitler's character. His behavior warrants more than earthly punishment. A bullet to the head and then being burned with gasoline doesn't make up for what he did to so many innocent people. He doesn't deserve to go to heaven. Ever.

okaaaay,

First it's lunberg : not lundeberg(like in the song) or ljunberg (soccer player haha).

Secondly, I do believe like you that Science does not exclude God like a mainstream opinion would want it to be (God being an exotic explanation to why we are here and Science being the real thing).
However, quantum Physics( Relativity) does not prove the existence of God in any way. I do not know where you read that...

Again, when you say :

in string theory, an extra dimension keeps getting tacked on every few years or so. So, you see, it turned out that nature will never be licked, cannot be licked. The Earth & the Heavens are not a machine to be tinkered with, but rather a Living System & God was never dead

you aren't explaning at all why God existence should be all the more true : the complexity of the String theory itself isn't an argument in favor of the existence of God. You're using a classic but invalid argument according to which a complew universe cannot be the doing of chance. Invalid because it's a postulate ( is that the english word ?), not an undisputable fact.

The predicament in apprehending God existence is real : modern logic theories cannot be conceived with the absence of Postulate. Proving the existence of God must mean that you are always "presupposing something" (damn my englissh gets so bad on these subjects...). And the fact that, that 'something' is an arbitrary assumption (since it's a postulate) shows us that you cannot really prove the existence of God.

Believe me, a lot of papers on the subject and none has actually given an acceptable definite answer .

This whole victim's mentality that I see & hear time & time again is nauseating.

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" & so forth. Ivan Karamazov all over again.

You have a will. God didn't make the Earth a cesspool of corruption & evil...humans did...by not understanding properly & not living in accordance to Natural Laws. The state of this world is the summation of all of our errors of the will & we have only ourselves to blame.

So you may ask why God would then even allow us a will. If one seriously asks this question, then I suppose you would fit in better with cro-magnons than homo sapiens.

King -

You just exposed the biggest misunderstanding you have with what I'm saying:

"He doesn't deserve to go to heaven. Ever." Of course not! That's not what Heaven, in Christianity , is! It's not something anyone deserves, or ever could deserve! It would warm my heart to know that Hitler finally laid down his guns and let himself be forgiven, let himself be healed of whatever fucked up tumor he had in his soul (which I believe we all have to varyingly-obvious degrees), let love win him over. In the end I don't think Heaven would be very meaningful if it weren't available to everyone, including Hitler. They would just have to choose it.

And yes, Hell is a place for people who don't want to "hang out" with God, in Christianity. It's a place for people who did not let him in. It has nothing to do with having violated the laws, because according to Christ, ahem, the founder of the religion, everyone's violated the law a zillion times over.

Also, religion is not a matter of faith necessarily. My religious beliefs are not really beliefs at all. I know God exists. I don't worry about it at all. It's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of knowledge. It would be an act of intellectual suicide for me to not believe in God. The faith (this is a common misconception) is put into the PERSON of God. You've seen their character, now you trust them, etc. Like you trust that your best friend isn't the kind of person to leave you high and dry. That's faith.

LUMBERG FUCKED HER

religion is silly

Being satisfied with being in error is what's "silly."

Silly
as in folly
as in you are willfully ignorant
as in you are evil by choice
as in it is people like you
(along with the vast majority of people

(both religious & non-religious alike)
you're not alone there, that's for sure)
that make the world so intolerably
fucked-up

for everyone.

oh:(

^
(along with the vast majority of people
(both religious & non-religious alike)
you're not alone there, that's for sure)



Let's go back to this whole label of "God," because as you shall see, I presuppose nothing. By naming God as a separate entity, we also do a disservice to the Truth. The earliest philosphers knew this to be the case & thus prohibited the naming of God. Language usually serves to only perpetuate the virus of confusion further when it comes to these matters & that, in a nutshell, is why Wittgenstein is the last important philosopher.

In our corporeal state, the dimension of time is absolutely & certainly a reality. But in Relativity, Time is just another dimension that is relative & is not absolute at all. What are the constants? There are none. The speed of light comes closest to being a true constant; it's absolutely constant in a vacuum of space. So what does this mean, then? It means that all matter in the universe is in constant flux & transformation, but in essence, everything always perfectly zeroes itself out no matter what. This defines our universe a continuum. Time & Eternity have a strange (seemingly paradoxical) relationship to each other. We can observe that the really large things in the universe are a bit more stabilized than everything else & follow precisely predictably ellipictal orbits & lifespans. On the other hand, we can attempt to observe the smallest of things & what we discover is beyond our wildest ideas of ever understanding because of the amount of kinesis & the overwhelming amounts of nuclear energy involved.
To see a world in a grain of sand And a Heaven in a wild flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour. - Blake
Ponder that nearly all atoms of matter that everything is composed of is made up of overwhelmingly empty space. The closest we can (& probably will) ever get to being able to predict anything about these infinitesimally small particles (& subatomic particles & so on) of matter is through what we already have, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which allows us to guess intelligently by using the shadows.
& Here we are...in Platos' cave again.

With our conscious waking minds, we perceive separations that aren't ultimately there. All matter is composed of slightly varying forms of the same field of energy. God is not "the Other". There is no such thing as "the Other" except in one's own mind. Your unconscious already knows All a priori if you can key that information into conscious activity through calming your restless fears & anxieties. From all this it should naturally be apparent that our incessantly clinged-to notion of a "Knower" & "the Known" is yet another false boundary that is reinforced through the conditioning of our seemingly ever-pervasive creaturely existence.

As Socrates remarked, "who's to say that death is not the best thing?"

I'm not saying this to anyone on the board (because I have no fucking clue if this applies to you), just some obseravations. I think these are three, of probably a lot, of common reasons people don't believe in God:

Fear of offending people who don't believe what you do. This applies especially to theists who believe in a specific God.
Fear of being confronted by God, because, down deep, we know that this would probably demand something severe from us.
Being angry at God for how fucked up the world is.

I think being polite is incredibly overrated in situations like these. A small example would be a song like "Shaking Hell" which probably offends the hell out of 99% of the population. A larger example would be that the parents of white children in the Deep South in the 1950s were offended by the idea that their children should have to go to school with black kids. But they needed to be offended. An even better example would be that I have no problem offending Pat Robertson or Osama bin Ladin by telling them that their god is false, that I know for certain, that God does not hate gays or Americans (though he might hate capitalism).

I can understand being afraid of being confronted by God though. When I was 18 I was stricken with scrupulosity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity). I couldn't stop thinking about how if God were truly good, he must hate so much of what I do. It was a fear of being confronted that, due to my brain chemistry, got way out of hand. I got on meds, wrote and prayed and read and listened to music like crazy, and was finally in a place where, though still afraid, I could say, "here ya go, God, do with it what you will"...and found out that God is love. and I don't mean God is loving. I mean God is love. He authored it. He is it. I realized how much comfort there was in being flawed and loved. This is why I say it would break my heart with joy if I saw Hitler in heaven. He, more than most people, probably would have issues with being able to accept he was forgiven.

Being angry with God about the world being fucked up only bothers me sometimes, when I forget that free will essentially dictates that the world will have problems, unless people were perfect, which they choose not to be (ha!).

I don't know if this makes any sense or even has to do with anything. Just thought I'd say it. I don't think these things would immediately occur to the atheist or agnostic as being the reason for their belief/lack of belief. I think it would be deeply buried probably. And I also think there are people who plum don't believe (and I think they will someday, whether when they die or before they die. And I think God's love will be such that it will be irresistible).

Okay so there has been 2 whole pages added since I last checked here, and I ain't reading it all.

But in response to Lipslikewindows,

I think the reasons you said are very common, but maybe more so among people that were Christians at one point. Like you said, people who were raised atheist may just not be interested. But among truely interested people, there are those who have looked into certain areas of religion and found evidence against Christianity and may have a perfectly logical reason for disbelieving it. I have found very convincing evidence against Christianity. Stuff that would, at first glance, make it look ridiculous. But looking further into it (and by this I don't mean deluding myself into seeing something that isn't there) I personally found that Christianity does make a whole lot of sense in just about every way. It depends how willing you are to delve into it. If you stop a quarter of the way in, you'll find a very different answer than if you keep going. I think that's another major reason that people don't believe in God. And I'm not saying that the point I've reached is further than anyone else, but simply that as far as I can tell Christianity makes the most sense.

I'm not a memeber of any cogregationaly, porganized religion.

just for Diesel^

Diesel, I'm not a member of any organized religion.
atari 2600 is not a member of any public groups.
what does this mean? haha

I certainly don't discount Religion. I don't discount Love, Art, Music, Philosophy, Physics or Science either.

If I had to classify myself I would say that (& I have written this here before as well) that I am a Christian Existentialist with additional special emphasis on Lao-Tzu & Socrates. The Pretention Pipe is Brimmin', baby! Over-fuckin'-flowin'-with-the-knowin', oh darlin' honey pie.

A sheep can be cloned, a human cannot.

I love haha how very boastfully he starts off like that...your loss.


Hey, here's a thought: What about Christians that are raised Christian*? How can they ever believe? I mean, REALLY.
Philosophy begins with doubt. All science begins with doubt as well. If one is conditioned to be a Christian then one can never truly believe, that is, unless they are Jesus or somethin' hehe.


The Old Testament is a history of the Hebrews. It is not pretty. They were a fledgeling civilization in the ancient world & constantly being persecuted.

The tome is bloody.

Animals (almost Issac) was/were sacrificed for God's Love & Mercy. It is filled with epic tales.

The New Testament is about a revolution in consciousness that still has never taken place. Instead, the "faithful" like to incant "In the name of Jesus" at the drop of a hat whilst cooking up ways to lie & judge all the live long day and behave as the antithesis of Jesus. & it's probably all because the were raised Christian*, pretend to be Christian, & actually believe in nothing but themselves; besides, they got a great cover story to abuse.

Jesus spoke in parables & it's His blood that we remember.

The Bible is a Book of Wisdom...the world's greatest. It is not however, meant to be taken entirely literally. Such is the excuse given for the origin of much of the world's strife...the real reason is money though (but of course) which is the false god, but that leads us to politics...


As I wrote before, I belong to no congregation or affiliation, but I feel good that you have made religion a foundation of your personality & I think it can only help you as long as you truly open yourself up to Love & reject Fear.

I would generally agree with everything Acoustic and Atari said in their respective last posts.

Acoustic: I agree, I came to the conclusion that while there might not be absolute proof of Christianity being true, it seems to me to be illogical NOT to believe it.

Pericles built the Parthenon (for inspiration) before he ever commissioned the Agora (for practicality).

Imagination is more important than Knowledge. - Einstein

& it was later within the Agora at the Council of 500 (the foundation for all civilized legal systems forthwith), after Pericles, after the Spartan sieges & a plague that claimed a quarter of Athens,
& opportunist career politicians had assumed the mantle of a privileged class, &
the people had grown all fat & spoiled & lazy-minded happily subjugated to the gentry in their sufficient diversions --
that a once great democracy succumbed to the lowest common denominator of thought & mob rule ruled all --
and Socrates was condemned to death.

It is my loss, I agree, but I talk to people of all kinds of religions about religion quite a bit (though not nearly as much now as I used to, sadly.) Hah, not boastful - just admittedly lazy right now. And most of the time...


One who is raised as a Christian is certainly able to doubt. I know people who have fully turned their back on it after being raised Christian. It's quite common. Realizing that you do not have to stick to what you are raised to believe opens you up to the possibility of actually believing it. However, I'm not sure if you were saying that or the opposite. I may have misunderstood.



I do believe the Bible to be literal, but not all of it. There are parts (such as the parables) which are very obviously philosophical or symbolic. However, for the most part I think that it is more of a case of misinterpretation. Especially verses taken completely out of context and quoted "in Jesus name," as you said. Verses such as "no one comes to the Father but through me" is a good example of a difficult verse to interpret. I honestly am not sure what to make of that. Each passage must be looked at in the context of the entire book. I've come to the conclusion that things like that are not in my hands, and it is best to trust that God knows what He's doing there. But I am not going to tell someone "Jesus says you're going to hell" just because one verse could imply that if taken a certain way. That's not my place.



I actually don't consider Christianity to be an organization. It is "follower of Christ." One who follows and believes His teachings. And I do. I don't follow Christians, I am one.

You just said exactly what I have been talking about. You say you "know" that God exists. But you only think you know. There is absolutely NO WAY you could possibly really know the existance of God. I know that you thinnk you know and that is good enough for you and that is perfectly fine. But the arguement is that no one no matter how convinced they are, can ever know the excistance of God in this lifetime. It just isnt possible. And everyone has different viewpoints on heaven and hell. Mine are just as invlaid or valid as the next persons. I don't know the real truth behind it all. I'm simply trying to put my perspective on the whole shebang.

You can't know but you can have a good idea. There are more valid opinions but not valid ones, in a sense. My opinion that there is not a midget under my bed is more valid than someone else's opinion that there is one. But I'm not looking, so I don't know. You're right, but I think one opinion can be more likely than another.

boastful = puffed-up

I was just hinking of editing that.

word up.

There are a lot of people ho have taught some very amazing truths which humans can live by. I think Jesus was one of these such people. He said some absolutely thruthful things. Whether Jesus was the Son of God or not, he was a great philosopher. And that is what I believe in. I beleive in his philosophy, not his divinity.

The problem with religion is that it is interpreted too literally by mindless, android-like people. Their religion is enslaving their minds by hindering the human experience. They are so secluded in their beleifs that they cannot possibly see that some other, contradicting belief may be possible or true. Thisnsi my problem with religion. People start wars over religion. People use religiona s a source for power rather than a source for salvation and inner peace. People hate other people because they don't beleive in their religion or their version of that religion. It's all too powerfula dn is too touchy a subject for all people to discuss it amicably and not be offended.

Look at the Middle East. A lot of the fighting over there is about religion. Some of it is about economic situations, land distribution and border disputes, but it all keeps coming back to religious differences.

Look at here in America: Some whacko's are protesting at U.S. soldiers funerals with signs that read "God hates Fags" and other such nonsense. You know where they learned that shit? The Bible. It's in there. The Bible says early on that God looks unfavorably on homosexual acts. It does not say that God HATES homosexuals, but it isn't His bag. This to me seems like archaic beleifs in a biological function that was not understood at the time it was written. Homosexuality, for whatever evolutionary reason, is a natural function of mammals.

One opinion can be more plausible than another, IF there is evidence. But since there is no evidence that any kind of God exists in any form, then we can only assume that everyone is fucking crazy and is imagining it all. I'm sick of philosiphying with everyone on this board cuz it isn't getting us anywhere.

This is the first time I have EVER agreed with Deisel on anything. He makes a good point. Someone will always beleive something that someone else will not. It is alrgley pointless to keep debating it and saying that som eone is wrong (without sufficient evidence). We all need to find ways to get along and just live our lives before our differences ruin them.

Well, you can say that this guy nailed every prophecy on the head with his theories, or you can say that there is something supernatural about the 50+ prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. Like you said, whatever is cool for you. But I'm not stupid. I don't believe in God without reason. Among other things, prophecies are evidence. You can call them weak or false evidence and find 50 reasons to discount them, like Till, but I think that a supernatural explanation is far more plausible than coming up with a formula of vague and hypothetical excuses. You're assuming everyone is fucking crazy because you just assume no one has a reason. You're perfectly free to disagree. I don't know that I'm right. I realize that. But I do have reasons.

No one has said "you're wrong" here as far as I've seen. If they have, you're obviously aware that they don't have a right. This is a discussion about our different beliefs. Not a ring of judgement. It's all cool. Or at least it should be.

Everyone has reasons to believe in God. I didn't mean to say that people who believe in God are crazy. It's the things they do in the name of God that gets crazy. All this anti-homosexuality hate speach and trying to teach creationism as an alternative to fact-based scientific stuuf along with all the bullshit going on in the Middle East with terrorist organizations targetting people just for being Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Christian. This is all sickening. I hate that crap and it kills a little bit of my soul every time I hear about it on tv.

Well I'll agree with you there.

I Worship Where The Fuck Is Waldo