That is true, Jesus very much "popped" it on the way out, after all even in the Gospel it references to the Hebraic cleansing ritual and circumcision of Jesus "for every male that opens the matrix" (matrix=greek for cervix)

Catholic atheist, so maybe she's the proverbial mother of all?

Living in Southern California, I did notice the cultural differences between the more Anglo Catholicism and the Mexican Catholicism. In fact, my Mexican friend left Catholicism to a non-denominational church because he found the ritualism of his family's Catholicism to be too much and too removed from his religious experience. This was contrary to my Catholicism. There were sacraments and liturgy, of course, but they were more subdued than the Mexican tradition. In fact, for my own part, I preferred more conservative aspects of Catholicism like masses in Latin, and the turn in homilies from deeper theological themes to contemporary politics must have played a role in my apostasy.

I feel the same way, for me the ritualism and traditions accentuate my religious experience, but many folks feel stifled. Other Mexicans and Chicanos see the Virgin as the epitome of their cultural and nationalistic/ethnic/ancestral identity. The Virgin IS Mexico for many folks..

on another tip..

I was also thinking..

so the Virgin could also represent for men the "one that got away" or at least "the dream girl" that they are always chasing after in the form of a million other women. For women, the virgin could also come to be the idealized woman, the supermodel on the cover the magazine, who is both idolized and bitterly resented in the same breathe (in other words "that bitch")

nothing to me.

A slut.

no dr that was the other mary

I've never heard that, which gospel is that?

Sometimes people see the face of the virgin mary in their toast.

One time I got a secret message in my alphabet cereal....it said "oooooooooooooooo", and then I realized I was eating cherios.

haha

...

I was going to say that the whole "virgin" thing with Mary is just the church's way of keeping their "savior" clean of the "sin" of Joseph having fucked her, but others have said basically that, far more eloquently. But I can tell you that last Christmas, my family was having a religious discussion and my Catholic schoolteacher aunt mentioned something about her faith believing that Jesus and Mary were the reincarnation of Adam and Eve...

Now hold on here. Isn't reincarnation supposedly a lie made up by heathens? So their savior and his mom are the reincarnation of the mother and father of humanity, but the rest of us pureblooded (purity meaning filth) sinners from cradle to grave have only one shot at living a good life? Pure hypocrisy.

Interestly enough, Johnny Cash's "God's Gonna Cut You Down" is playing on the stereo next to me...

She's just a virgin. There is no rag sopped in blood...

Luke 2

22And when the days of their purification were fulfilled, according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem, to present to the Lord,
23as it hath been written in the Law of the Lord, -- `Every male opening a womb (lit. matrix) shall be called holy to the Lord,'
24and to give a sacrifice, according to that said in the Law of the Lord, `A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.'

It is therefore fundamental Hebraic theology (which is indeed contrary to the Roman doctrines which are highly disputed across Christendom) that Jesus Christ both be born of a Virgin Birth (Ezekiel's Door in the East which no man goes into but the Lord and only He comes out of it) but to be perfectly legal according to Moses' tradition, He must have also have opened the matrix so that the Law could be fulfilled through the appropriate Temple rituals. Interestingly enough, I realized last night that Solomon's Temple in the literature and context of the Bible is in fact a symbol of the Virgin Mary, not the other way around, which is of course why the Temple in Jerusalem stood and was rebuilt three times and yet when it was knocked down after the coming of the Virgin (who is the True Temple, the True Dwelling place of God) they left the rubble on the ground.



That's not true, the Bible (and many other writings and stories in the Church canon of Holy Tradition) speaks specifically of Reincarnation with the concept of John the Baptist and Elijah and Elisha, as well as several others in the 'apocryphal' traditions..

It seemed to me the entire concept of the Virgin birth is not necessarily to emphasize purity of Jesus, but rather the mysterious, supernatural and fully divine aspect of Jesus. If the story is indeed true, of a Virgin giving birth, there must be something seriously different about that woman and especially that Child. The very concept draws the attention of any who would have heard of it, it has just gotten so common place in our civilization that we are used to it, and it has lost its awe inspiring appeal, but to those not familiar with the tradition, the idea of a Virgin birth is miraculous and divine, not a kind of legal/puritanical baggage.

Of course, the very purpose of this thread is not to discuss strictly what I or the Church think or teach about the Virgin, but rather what Y'ALL do, so I very much enjoy the discussion.. Many folks have indeed seen the Virgin birth as means of purifying the savior from 'sin' and elevating him as a symbol of purity, though truthfully it is not very accurate, after all, I don't believe there is anyone hornier or more infatuated with lust than pubescent 13 year olds and I am sure the Holy Virgin Mary was not necessarily an exception, so for folks to believe in the purity from sin of Mary or Jesus simply because of a virgin birth, well that is not quite realistic is it?

from the Hymnology towards Mary (reflecting many literary, visual and musical traditions regarding Mary) She becomes all the Old Testament symbols, or rather all the Old Testament imagery was symbolism for the coming of an actual woman, the Virgin ;)

Thou art the young
Shoot from the root
of DAVID.

Thou art the Second
Heaven over the
earth, O spotless
God-bearer. From
thee hath risen upon
us the Sun of
righteousness, and
thou didst bring Him
forth
Thou art the second
chamber, in that thou
wast called "Holiest of
Holies",
Thou art the golden
candlestick and dost hold
the brilliant Light at all
times,

Thou art the censer of
gold because thou didst
carry the coals of the
blessed fire which He
took from the
sanctuary
Thou art] the garden of
delight, the garden of
joy, which is planted with
the trees of LEBANON,
and was prepared for the saints before the world
was created.

Thou art like unto the rod
of AARON, which, without
being planted in the
ground and without
watering, burst into
blossom.

Thou art the Bush which
MOSES saw blazing with
fire, and the wood thereof
was not consumed

Thou art that Field wherein
no seed was sown, and yet
there went forth from thee
the Fruit of Life. Thou art
that Treasure-house which
JOSEPH (Old Testament) bought, and he
found therein a Pearl, a
precious gem,

It was He Who came down
to thee, O rational
mountain of Sinai
She is
JERUSALEM, the city of
the Prophets, and she is
the habitation of the joy
of all the saints

EZEKIEL the Prophet
testified concerning her
and said, "I see a sealed
door in the East, sealed
with a great and
wonderful seal, and no
one save the God of the
mighty ones hath gone
in through it. He went
in and He came out"

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SuchFriendsAreDangerous again

you stole that joke from Family Guy (and they probably stole it from somewhere else)

Welcome back, incendiary wit!

if the question was who is the virgin mary, i'd say it's a mythological figure of the christian religion.

however, since the question is who is she TO ME, the answer is "a pack of fucking lies"

Yes, yes i did....too good not to use again, though.

elaborate please. what part were the lies?

after all, whether or not the Virgin Mary is a true story is practically irrelevant to the cultural/historical/personal significance she may take on as an ever-constant aspect and part of our complicated, multi-layered existences..

for example she used to be just a pack of lies and a frightening crock of shit for me too, but after time, like most women, grew on me quite subtly at first..

i'd say she was a hot jewish ho who got knocked up by a roman soldier or an alien.

right, that's why i said she's a mythical figure. i mean, maybe there was or wasn't a jesus of nazareth who was a religious reformer among the jews--- and sure if he did exist he had to have a mother-- the fact that the dude got turned into a deity and his mother into another is not unusual. alexander the great also became a god, after all.

the pack of lies part for me is the form that the myth itself takes-- the whole notion of divine sexless pregnancy, which is to me a bronze-age invention cooked up to suppress and demonize female sexuality, debase the body and enshrine some vague "spirit" entity. female earth gods got replaced by male sky gods as war became an economic engine and women became chattel. yes, this wasn't the first virgin birth in religious history, but it's the most pervasive in our day. does this religious figure help give women in a "special" place? sure-- the same way the burkha does. to me, anyway, the cunt is holier than the hymen, and celibacy is an abomination.

Well i am of the Catholic Tradition, legally speaking my name is in the official Catholic register in the London Borough of Hounslow

The Virgin Mary has always been as meaningless as can be, her virginity says nothing about Jesus' words, and if she were a whore, would the teachings be rendered corrupot/dead?
Anyway, virginity is fine if it belongs to you, but when virginity belongs to EVERYONE, then i get uneasy

true true..

but you must admit there must be some cultural potency to the imagery and symbolism of Christianity and Judaism for their shit to dominate the world and survive when others, equally carried around the world through conquest, cooled and declined. All the great religions were carried around the world by the edge of the sword, and yet Christianity, Judaism and their sister in symbolism and origin Islam have stuck around long after all the colonial slave masters left.

Regardless of the truth of the stories and songs, so many different peoples of the world have adapted them as their own. How else could the stories, legends and hymns (as Joseph Campbell describes them) an obscure, demonic cult of Arabia come to be so well loved and personalized the world over across thousands of years? How else could a secret religion of the poor who sang and prayed in tombs and catechums become worldwide?

As ART, these religions are truly remarkable. Folks across time and place have embraced the symbolism, the philosophies, the mannerisms, the morals, the laws, the imagery, the song/music/hymn/liturgy, the architecture etc etc of Christianity and Judaism (and Islam) and made it their own.

I like to discuss this particularly with folks who do not believe, because we can critique the religion as ART rather than religion.

You all must admit, whether the stories themselves are true or not, the writers were powerfully creative and deeply intuitive to the human experience, and their creations have been of the most powerful literature, story and song the world has ever seen, and the world has seen the rise and fall of many many beautiful artists..

I mean, whether or not Tupac was actually a hardcore gangster and thug was irrelevent to the way his music was so well embraced across every corner of the world. Whether or not Bob Marley was a good or righteous man or believed what he sang, his songs have been embraced world wide. Whether or not Michael Jackson was a cool RB singer or a deranged child molester, his music still was the most popular ever.

See, the Bible and Tradition and Songs like the Virgin Mary are powerful cultural and artistic symbols which the world embraces and makes their own for a million and one reasons all deeply and intimately personal and individualized.

I am always awestruck simply at that fact alone, that the imagery and art of the Bible and Traditions are so widespread, and not because people are forced into it, that is a rather naive and even demeaning explanation..

That's like saying you like the Beatles because the record companies bombarded you with their music and the media and the pop culture vibe coerced you.. nonsense and we all know it ;)

"cultural potency" = hand me downs. Tradition, etc.

Perhaps I show show my non-existant six year old my wee-wee he'll swear for the rest of his life his dad had the biggest one in the world...shit will get carried on for generations.

man this is so long i'll try to reply quickly


football has greater cultural potency than any of those relijuns. the beatles were bigger than jesus. paganism wins.


it appealed to the slaves, who were the majority. it's marketing genius consisted in that it celebrated the meek, the oppressed, the poor-- in other words, most of the population during the barbaric stages of history (which more or less continue until today)


i prefer the greeks, but to each their own


i grew up surrounded by baroque churches, and i always found christian imagery repellent, even when i believed-- naked crucifixions, statues with stupid faces, etc. sure, there was a profusion of religious art during the renaissance mostly because the megachurch footed the bill, but the good art came from the rediscovery of greece and rome.


i can't make logical sense of this. the "must" part always irks me though, i'm terrible at taking orders.



ok you left me behind here-- i can't catch up with your thinking. are we talking about historical truths or about how good or bad myths are regardless of their popularity? because i haven't agreed with you that popularity automatically translates into quality. it's like saying macdonalds must be awesome food because there's one everywhere.


like pokemon, or dungeons & dragons, or (better yet) greek mythology.


bullshit, christianity was spread by military and economic power-- ask any indian of the americas.

here a little entertainment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda


the media did bombard me with shitty pop and i liked it until i was 12. my mom liked the beatles and i liked them ok for a while.

I wish I could find the list of the other Biblical characters who were born by virgin birth. It's not unique, even in the Bible. No further comment though.

it's much older than christianity, if i had here my copy of the golden bough i'd copypaste the lot.

by the way, if i recall well, the mother of jesús wasn't deemed a "virgin" until the nicene council in the IV century.

A whore who clearly got caught in a lie. "oh hunny, I never had sex with anyone and am saving myself for you...it...it must be a baby from above...the lord sent it to me"

Whoa whoa whoa...the beatles did not produce shitty pop.

Watch it.

The
beatles
sucked.

The
Stooges
Sucked.

But neither of them were worse than Charles Mansons shit.

Zoroaster, Guatama (I think) Zeus...

Some historical-linguistic scholars get quite excited about the Septuagint translating the Hebrew 'young woman' into 'virgin', so it wouldn't surprise me that wasn't due to the Nicene council; I know the Marian cult is a relatively late addition to Christianity, but obviously your Luthers and Zwinglis sorted that lot out.

She is the funny reason why some boys have girl names: Carl Maria von Weber, Erich Maria Remarque, Klaus Maria Brandauer, Rainer Maria Rilke etc.

Well, ya know what they say about opinions.

:)

congratulations you have one

what's the point of a debate between an atheist and a theist?

I can't believe this thread still has life. Anyone who actually believes she was a MARRIED virgin must also believe that Living with the Kardashians isn't scripted.

yeah the buddha legend is a very late addition, zeus was son of rhea but athena was born from his head alone, plus a very handy hammer. when hera tried to give birth to something by herself she begat a monster called typhon that was locked up in the bottom of the ocean-- goes to show you men are better at this shit (ha ha ha).

i did a search of the golden bough online and it mentions that one of the myths of isis says not that she fucked the corpse of osiris but that she gave birth to horus all on her own. the cult of isis was popular in rome by the way so it's possible that some of her properties got transferred to mary (this is my own speculation).

anyway there are various myths like that but all date back to the bronze age, before that it's all big women with lots of tits that get the worship (hurray).

i wish someone would start a cult of monica bellucci, i'd so convert to that.



i was a member of the Church of Zeta in the 90s but then she up and married that turkey neck who probably covered her all in geezer dreck.

amusement? since agreement is impossible, you can argue for fun