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-   -   Dear america, you're embarrasing yourself (http://www.sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthread.php?t=33836)

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
aren't poor liberals the same who think the world is over-populated? so if yr all rly sick, just die then, and help the world out. it'd be the most courteous and least hypocritical thing to do

Just as you shouldn't go around reducing Americans to one singular thought or philosophy, it's dangerous to do the same things with liberals. Either/or mentalities will never add up because there are so many complexities in any sort of political thought. There have been some liberals who have thought that way...and same with consevatives. It's true that, say, the early women's reproductive rights movement was perpetuated on a backbone of eugenic philosophies (see Margret Sanger)... but fortunately, since there is not just one sector of liberals vs conservatives, other people who advocated for reproductive rights were able to think and speak critically about that apsect of the movement. Just an example. I make no sense. I'm gonna go look for a caffinated soda.

ni'k 08.22.2009 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
you do know that over here in Christianland, married couples are averaging like 1.7 kids or so right? .... do you know how many kids a muslim family averages? guess.

also, good luck trying to convince the world to stop following God and start reading Philip K Dick. srsly good luck with that. are you high?

uh... I don't get you. I wasn't implying that people of the muslim faith should breed more either, or that somehow because muslims breed more christians should breed more to compete. that's the kind of right wing pyschosis thats the cause of our problems.

and no, im not trying to convert people from god to pkd. pkd was probably one of the most fervent/well read/obsessional christians in american history by the way. he predicted the second coming of christ and probably knew more about the christian relegion than 99.9% of american scholars/christians know today

girlgun 08.22.2009 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by notyourfiend
You aren't allowed to get secondary work if you are doing AmeriCorps. You are expected to be on call 24/7.


You weren't drafted for that.

Jesus fuck.

Haha at demonrail. I'm a greedy mutherfuck. I prefer to buy pricey boots than health insurance for my neighbor. I work a lot of hours and I should get to decide where my money goes.

Kloriel 08.22.2009 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
pkd was probably one of the most fervent/well read/obsessional christians in american history by the way.

no wonder his female characters are all so shallow and mere sketches and names!

oh shit!

i have no friends.

ni'k 08.22.2009 11:48 AM
haha yeah. he married four times, had one of them sent to a mental home, and often accused others of being government agents sent to kill him.

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
We certainly can't continue to function the way we are going -

1. the earth is already overpopulated, and thanks to the christian/reckless hedonist consumerist ideologies we continue to have so many kids (instead of looking after the ones that are already here). This will only end up in mass death/war over resources.

Just a note - I think that this is a dangerous argument to try to follow through on. When you talk about who should and shouldn't be having kids, you are participating in a very moralistic and oppressive mode of thought.

But I do agree that America needs to start valuing other opinions such as adoption and foster care. There is little to no money, especially in the later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
2. the enviroment. remember back when anyone who talked about it was just a hippie? the way we live is unhealthy for both the world and us. We build things that are designed not to last and thus to be replaced, made only for profit and are out of sync with nature. It's both inefficient and dangerous.

Once again, global capitalism seriously needs to re-examine it's focus and put other things before profit...you know, like the environment and basic humanitarianism

Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
3. the war machine shows no signs of stopping. we are in a fucked up position were we help fund and propagate it by our very participation in much of society.

It's a lot more than just "the war machine"...that's a pretty vague term. We perpetuate oppressive systems by our basic participation in a multitude of systems and discourse...also, most of us think of what is as being stoic, we forget that many of systems around us have been very different before, that we didn't always have prisons and mental institutions the same laws of sanity and sancity, and can continue to transformed the world for the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
4. crucial to all this is the view of the body as a commodity which is encouraged under capitalism.

body politics man.

homosexuality is also a relatively new system, an idea that didn't really exist 150 years ago, one that denotes a new class and type of person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
5. saying JUST GET A JOB doesn't work - capitalism depends on a reserve army of the unemployed in order to function. it also means that third world people can't get any work because their countries are being raped/destroyed by capitalism. also capitalism destroys people both pyschologically and physically. the rest are at best addicts with a borderline pyschosis/depression.

I'm not sure if I would say that capitalism relies on the UNEMPLOYED, but certainly on the exploited.

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlgun
You weren't drafted for that.

Jesus fuck.

Haha at demonrail. I'm a greedy mutherfuck. I prefer to buy pricey boots than health insurance for my neighbor. I work a lot of hours and I should get to decide where my money goes.

No I was not. In many ways, this is exactly where I want/need to be right now. However, I think it says something that volunteerism is so de-valued that people who are willing to give up a year of their lives to work for the betterment of the world around them are literally paid shit.

Also, living in these surroundings, I see that capitalism views poor people as being the problems, not the conditions by which they became impoverished. Most urban renewal and whatnot has to goal to displace those people and put in their place new, richer, whiter, safer ones.

The problem isn't pure capitalism or anything...as I've kind of been mentioning throughout this thread it is, in my opinion, that we continue to value profit over everything else. Call me a dreamer, but I really like to try to envision a world where that which is living is a first priority.

alteredcourse 08.22.2009 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
The problem is the current dominant worldview of liberal capitalist democracies which basically sees mankind separate from the earth and the earth as a commodity for mankind to use/consume. Basically a Capitalist Christian viewpoint. I think there is something to the idea that we need to realise that we are all part of the one conciousness. When Philip K Dick talks about how the empire never ended and the idea of the black iron prison i interpret that to mean our slavery to God (which is our slavery to an imaginary father figure/schizophrenic cut off from outer reality). This worldview tells us that we are an isolated individual (I) who will die alone and is forever in debt/guilt to an imaginary father figure. I think the black iron prison refers to the cut off point, an imaginary black line separating our bodies and isolating them thus causing a division in the one - (self/world division) which can be imagined as a black line around our skin cutting us off from everything else/a black line around our minds cutting us off from true conciousness.

We certainly can't continue to function the way we are going -

1. the earth is already overpopulated, and thanks to the christian/reckless hedonist consumerist ideologies we continue to have so many kids (instead of looking after the ones that are already here). This will only end up in mass death/war over resources.
2. the enviroment. remember back when anyone who talked about it was just a hippie? the way we live is unhealthy for both the world and us. We build things that are designed not to last and thus to be replaced, made only for profit and are out of sync with nature. It's both inefficient and dangerous.
3. the war machine shows no signs of stopping. we are in a fucked up position were we help fund and propagate it by our very participation in much of society.
4. sexually we are fucked up, superstitious and dumb. homophobia/our hiv aids policies/our squeamishness and christian bullshit combines with our permissive hedonism to create a society of loneliness, repression, intolerance, sti's, unwanted pregnancies, lack of sufficient knowledge and unfufillment. crucial to all this is the view of the body as a commodity which is encouraged under capitalism.
5. saying JUST GET A JOB doesn't work - capitalism depends on a reserve army of the unemployed in order to function. it also means that third world people can't get any work because their countries are being raped/destroyed by capitalism. also capitalism destroys people both pyschologically and physically. the rest are at best addicts with a borderline pyschosis/depression.

i think that irony is the first line of defense/denial to all this. breaking out of the post modern condition should be the goal of culture, but we seem to be failing to do anything culturally but encourage obedience/ignorance/denial/addiction/distraction AT BEST and at worst racism, homophobia, sheer propaganda.

It seems like the america you describe is working towards short term goals, such as making a ton of money. Maybe produce a bunch of cool things, and maybe create an atmosphere on mars so they can have a vacation station. What do you think everyone ought to be working towards? Nobodys going to change anything unless they know a "what for?"

ni'k 08.22.2009 11:59 AM
i dont think what i said about overpopulation is dangerous at all. all im saying is people should realise we are overpopulated and not have more kids. but i certainly dont advocate forcing them to stop or punishing them or their kids in any way if they do breed.

when you say that capitalism needs to re-examine itself and put other things before profit.. is this not impossible? isn't capitalism itself the problem? this is the point i'm trying to read up on at the moment, im pretty disillusioned with marxism/socialism etc. what shocked me today was earlier when i found myself thinking "could we really survive without money". it was scary to find myself so resistant to this idea when the majority of human history proves it to be true.

i think that the gay identity is part of the problem, in that it's just as much of a lie as the straight position. all humans are bisexual, anyone who says different is a liar. but i don't like the term bisexual either, because anything can provoke sexual reactions in people. i think the problem lies in the inherent violence in language and our existing social relations under capitalism, which make true love/collaboration impossible.

davenotdead 08.22.2009 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by notyourfiend
No I was not. In many ways, this is exactly where I want/need to be right now. However, I think it says something that volunteerism is so de-valued that people who are willing to give up a year of their lives to work for the betterment of the world around them are literally paid shit.


The problem isn't pure capitalism or anything...as I've kind of been mentioning throughout this thread it is, in my opinion, that we continue to value profit over everything else. Call me a dreamer, but I really like to try to envision a world where that which is living is a first priority.


to the bold: thats why its called "volunteer work"

also, a lot of the richest people of the world are also the biggest philanthropists. i could argue that bill gates does more to help 'the world' than 99.9% of the poor starving artist liberals do, just because they recycle and choose bikes over cars etc... they think that gives them the right to yell/scoff at rich people.

of course the world would be better if people weren't greedy. but taking away incentives for people who work hard to make money, well i just don't think that would help

ni'k 08.22.2009 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alteredcourse
It seems like the america you describe is working towards short term goals, such as making a ton of money. Maybe produce a bunch of cool things, and maybe create an atmosphere on mars so they can have a vacation station. What do you think everyone ought to be working towards? Nobodys going to change anything unless they know a "what for?"

i think the problem is inherent in our language/ontological position.

we should "work towards" the realisation that we are actually one conciousness. any deviation from this is belief in death. because we are one collective conciousness there is no death. if we see ourselves as individuals separate from each other then we are dooming ourselves to death.

ni'k 08.22.2009 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
to the bold: thats why its called "volunteer work"

also, a lot of the richest people of the world are also the biggest philanthropists. i could argue that bill gates does more to help 'the world' than 99.9% of the poor starving artist liberals do, just because they recycle and choose bikes over cars etc... they think that gives them the right to yell/scoff at rich people.

of course the world would be better if people weren't greedy. but taking away incentives for people who work hard to make money, well i just don't think that would help

bill gates and the economic system he profits from is the cause of much of third world impoverishment.

davenotdead 08.22.2009 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
uh... I don't get you. I wasn't implying that people of the muslim faith should breed more either, or that somehow because muslims breed more christians should breed more to compete. that's the kind of right wing pyschosis thats the cause of our problems.

i was referring to how you were blaming christians/americans for overpopulating .... when its mostly other religions and nations that are, in fact, doing much more "damage" in this regard.

Dead-Air 08.22.2009 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
oh, and we also like to make a big fuss about how your 'gridiron' is far too complicated to follow.

it's nothing personal. We're a small land that's had our global significance ripped from under us by a place that endorses monster truck racing. it hurts.

Yeah, but because you're small, Motorhead could get a #1 album over there, and your health care was successfully socialized. Something to be said for less "diversity" there.

ni'k 08.22.2009 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
i was referring to how you were blaming christians/americans for overpopulating .... when its mostly other religions and nations that are, in fact, doing much more "damage" in this regard.

again, the existence of division in the form of nationality/relegion is the problem. if we continue to breed the way we are doing now more war can be the expected result. our current reality is the problem.

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
to the bold: thats why its called "volunteer work"

also, a lot of the richest people of the world are also the biggest philanthropists. i could argue that bill gates does more to help 'the world' than 99.9% of the poor starving artist liberals do, just because they recycle and choose bikes over cars etc... they think that gives them the right to yell/scoff at rich people.

of course the world would be better if people weren't greedy. but taking away incentives for people who work hard to make money, well i just don't think that would help

A lot of philanthropists donate for the tax benefits. Some do so because they have hearts. It is dangerous to generalize too much.

A part of what worries me is that we think of rich people as being better people, people who are more worthy and whatnot.

ni'k 08.22.2009 12:22 PM
it is these very philanthropists that spend their day exploiting the world with their financial dealings and the evening donating some of that back. the economy is the problem, not trying to cover up your guilt/damage by using the spoils of exploitation to feed the exploited.

davenotdead 08.22.2009 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ni'k
again, the existence of division in the form of nationality/relegion is the problem.


what in the fuck are you talking about? you are the one who started this thread. this thread entitled : Dear america, you're embarassing yourself. lumping all americans and christians together. i can't imagine how high you are

demonrail666 08.22.2009 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
also, a lot of the richest people of the world are also the biggest philanthropists.

The problem with philanthropy is that it relies on the good will of a few wealthy people. A general welfare system based on taxation takes away the choice to contribute as well as any stigma that might arise out of receiving it; the idea being that by contributing to it, you're entitled to benefit from it when the need arises rather than being put in a position where you ought to feel grateful for it.

davenotdead 08.22.2009 12:24 PM
fuck me you guys are dense. done with this thread

edit-not demonrail

ni'k 08.22.2009 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davenotdead
what in the fuck are you talking about? you are the one who started this thread. this thread entitled : Dear america, you're embarassing yourself. lumping all americans and christians together. i can't imagine how high you are

yeah, and i continued posting, the initial annoyance subsided and i got over it. these things do exist now, what i'm saying is that i don't think they should.

Kloriel 08.22.2009 12:29 PM
you have to admit though, philip's wenches may be shallow, but dude, his fucking plots drive only like a dick can plow through the ether!

demonrail666 08.22.2009 12:31 PM
dick wenches are shallow? I've based my entire understanding of women on dick wenches. fuck!

Kloriel 08.22.2009 12:39 PM
yr missing the point. dick's wenches are deep. deep.

demonrail666 08.22.2009 12:40 PM
exacxtly. exactly.

floatingslowly 08.22.2009 12:56 PM
hey guys! american medical industry expert here, with over 12 years of experience!

I just wanted to pop in and say that you don't know what the hell yr talking about and to PLEASE keep the lulztrain rollin'!

I find the quantum-logic jump from personal responsibility to nationalism very interesting!!!

Kloriel 08.22.2009 01:03 PM
also: I sent werebats into your warlock forest, mebbe bout 6-11; but don't worry it was just a feint.

THE VANGUARD IS MY LEGION OF ICE GIANTS AND GAVIN TOUGHSHELLS

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlgun
Hahahaha. I want nothing more in the world than to take you to a monster truck rally.


I would love to go to one of those things.

Seriously.

I need to take a road trip to see something else.

notyourfiend 08.22.2009 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
The problem with philanthropy is that it relies on the good will of a few wealthy people. A general welfare system based on taxation takes away the choice to contribute as well as any stigma that might arise out of receiving it; the idea being that by contributing to it, you're entitled to benefit from it when the need arises rather than being put in a position where you ought to feel grateful for it.

Exactly.

davenotdead 08.22.2009 01:22 PM
the irony in this thread is mindblowing

floatingslowly 08.22.2009 01:24 PM
although I agree completely with what demonrail says, I think that it's too late in the game and that will never happen in america.

do not discount the medical insurance lobby. they've been infiltrated by demonic forces.

Kloriel 08.22.2009 01:25 PM
yeah i wasn't really too high on Paycheck. But that may be because when I watched it I was unemployed. Anyone with a job see the movie?

I was expecting to not like it because Ben Afflect is in it, but the whole not having a job thing at the time really trumped that. I mean the bo-staff fighting was kind of cool, but it reminded me of ninja turtles; and of course I liked ninja turtles when I was a kid and thus didn't need a job... need I say the mellon collic resplendored? Like a firework in my eye?

demonrail666 08.22.2009 01:26 PM
i'm now completely obsessed with the idea of monster trucks.

Kloriel 08.22.2009 01:28 PM
 

floatingslowly 08.22.2009 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by demonrail666
i'm now completely obsessed with the idea of monster trucks.

they are terrible. you'd love it.

sunday SUNDAY SUNDAAAAAY!

ugh. once was enough!

girlgun 08.22.2009 01:41 PM
i've been once. it was terrrrrrrrible.

girlgun 08.22.2009 01:56 PM
out of curiosity.... do you people from countries other than america know that we pay state taxes as well as federal taxes? some states (a very few) don't pay state tax... like texas. but here in oklahoma we do. and i pay A LOT to state. we are governed by the USA, STATE, COUNTY AND CITY. in addition to paying federal and state taxes, i also pay property tax which is city tax. i'm really not comfortable paying any more in taxes.

if you own a business, your business is taxed, your income from the business is then taxed and all your employees are taxed. the business shouldn't be taxed. what would happen if the business wasn't taxed? there would be more to put back into the business, i.e. more employees or employees being paid more, better benefits (oh and thank god they shot down taxing our benefits too... jesus fucking christ srsly?)

floatingslowly 08.22.2009 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlgun
i've been once. it was terrrrrrrrible.

yeah, yr not into monster trucks at all, vactor 9000. :rolleyes:

girlgun 08.22.2009 01:58 PM
it's the vactor 2100 and it's badass.
 

demonrail666 08.22.2009 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by girlgun
out of curiosity.... do you people from countries other than america know that we pay state taxes as well as federal taxes? some states (a very few) don't pay state tax... like texas. but here in oklahoma we do. and i pay A LOT to state. we are governed by the USA, STATE, COUNTY AND CITY. in addition to paying federal and state taxes, i also pay property tax which is city tax. i'm really not comfortable paying anymore in taxes.

if you own a business, your business is taxed, your income from the business is then taxed and all your employees are taxed. the business shouldn't be taxed. what would happen if the business wasn't taxed? there would be more to put back into the business, i.e. more employees or employees being paid more, better benefits (oh and thank god they shot down taxing our benefits too... jesus fucking christ srsly?)

yeah yeah yeah, but you also drink gatorade and wear helmets during contact sports and tip in bars and race MONSTERTRUCKS and have weather that can kill and mispronounce the letter 'zed'. You're fucked, basically


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