Poe is so very death-educational.

I imagine that the Tibetan Book of the Dead would be too if I put a lifetime into studying it.

Poe made me really comfortable with death. I'm listening to The Smiths's 'Reel Around The Fountain', one of the most death- ridden songs ever. The death is cleverer than the listener, if you get what i mean.

I got a book of short stories by Edgar Allen Poe for my birthday, when I was eleven. I had many sleepless nights after reading it.

Death is something we all can be sure of.

And, as the saying goes, taxes too.

in a hail of bullets?

Zygmunt Bauman has some similar things to say about Death as well. Can't remeber which book it was in though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygmunt_Bauman

http://faculty.washington.edu/nelgee...s/hughes_1.htm

http://www.chosunjournal.com/death.html

http://www.selfknowledge.org/resourc...ialofdeath.htm

Oh really, what happens when a bee flies close to your face?

That's not a voluntary reaction. That's an instinctual involuntary reaction one gets when a bee flies near one's head.

Unless you are capable of deep meditation, you probably, like everyone, have fear of death.
Ask yourself if you can be hooked up to an EEG (like Tibetan Monks were in recent experiments) and show no flinching in your brainwave activity when a shotgun is fired from right beside to your head.

It's true, Kegmama, that you probably have less fear than most, but don't fool yourself. I certainly do not.

I was BORN DEAD.

true story. :)

Porkmarras already tried that one.

yeah, but I'm actually telling the truth.

bilateral pneumothorax for the win!

I think that some people, when they say they don't fear death, probably mean they don't think about it. How is it possible not to fear death?

really though, what's there to be afraid of?

bliss or nothingness, either way I'm cool with it.

I don't want my final expiration to be painful, but I can't say I'm really bothered by it.

Thank you, Pookie, you get it. Everyone should acknowledge their fear of death.
Fear of Death is indeed natural and beneficial for self-preservation. But, as expressed and just to clarify again for all, denying or not dealing with one's fear of death is mentally unhealthy. It can also lead to other problems. Let's say a big rig wrecks badly in front of your car on the interstate. A typical driver (with unacknowledged fears) is going to crash trying to avoid crashing into the semi or their response is going to be frozen-up by fear and they will certainly crash some other way. A driver with less fear of death, with a little more space in-between their thoughts, will most probably cooly avoid wrecking if it's possible. but...Remember, there are other cars on the road and they'll probably wreck into you anyway, no matter how good and wise you are at the wheel.

Humans develop character armor and neuroses (i.e., personality) to guard against seriously contemplating death, so I get what you're saying floatingslowly, but I've just heard it about a thousand times.

So, ironically, the "you" in you, is actually just a reaction based on your fear. And you thought "you" were so unique!

I had a near-death experience by nearly drowing when I was seven. It's my first really complete memory (and wiped out some of the previous ones, I imagine) and you had the bilateral pneumothorax "born dead" thing, so I would also agree that you, like Kegmama, may have a little less fear, but let's not kid ourselves, shall we?

The good news is that you probably have a predispostion to have a knack for meditation.

Aside from philosophical points, as perspective on mortality seems highly personal, can one differentiate between a fear of physical death and a fear of regret of the unrealized? i.e., a fear of the experiences one may miss out on upon dying? There are obviously many facets to the concept of death, but that one, in its childishness, petulance, and selfishness, seems to be the crux of it. I will definitely admit to a reluctance to sacrifice the unknown.

That, and I don't want to be found in any positions/situations that compromise my dignity.

I never proposed that I was unique. I stated my feelings about it and that's about it, but thanks for the e-psychoanalysis.

I have no fear of dying and I have no reason to lie about my feelings on a stupid message board.. again, I don't want it to be BAD, but the actual "death" part doesn't bother me. there are plenty of things I am afraid of (bees, gamma rays, unsecured heights) but death just isn't one of my phobias.

to suggest it's because I simply haven't dwelled upon it deeply enough is a pretty big assumption on the part of others who really know nothing of me. I have chest tube scars that tell a different story and I've spent the larger part of my life pondering it. death truely does not make me afraid.

you're free to assume that I'm in denial, however I owe nobody but myself any real explanations.

just because YOU are afraid of dying, does not mean that everyone else is. maybe the truth here is that you thought "you" were just like everybody else...

*shrug*

Yes. As you know, psychologists have labelled that part of your false, (but necessary) self, the Ego.

I'm just presenting this for clarification purposes.

If one loses the Ego completely, then you better already be in a mental hospital or monastery, because schizophrenia is takin' you home.

Through silent meditation one can achieve "space" in the inner dialogue of the Ego. In this space are eternities of possibilities. And by developing it collectively (which will probably only happen after some mass-catastrophe(s) that do not quite wipe out everyone), our minds will eventually evolve if we do not completely destroy our environment and ourselves first.

But would an evolution be considered a tendency toward the id, or the supergo? Even that's debatable. But that's a tangent.

And to floatingslowly, aren't all of our seemingly unrelated fears extensions of a fear of death, insofar as logical fear is born of the assumption of an undesired consequence (the most extreme and inevitable being death)?

Just askin' for discussion purposes. I'm undecided on that myself, as most common fears are illogically based.

floatingslowly, go back and reread the post please...I'm writiing in a general sense...for all of us...sorry I wasn't clearer...

I think that yeah, a more highly evolved mind would contain more conscious elements of both. The labels are debatable though, as you mention. I'm more of a Jungian than a Freudian, personally.

people are afraid of death because they don't know what happens next-or if anything happens at all. through history, there has been enough evidence to tate that people are afraid of the unknown. life after death; god, heaven.. is all a way to console ourselves and make us less afraid, in my opinion.

I'm not really debating the labels; I think they're relatively "accurate." One issue is the definition of evolution - does that mean improved human functionality in a certain environment, a more developed technical intelligence, a more perceptive consciousness? The possibilities are limitless, and therefore, so are the "methods" of achieving it. Is evolution the "advancement" of the mind beyond the need for physical form? If so, then the superego as it's defined would take precedence. But one could argue for a more discernable consciousness (I realize "consciousness" seems a contradictory term in the context of this sentence, shut up) of the primal, which would give it over to the id.

Too much to wade through and discuss before coming to any conclusions. And, I've gone off on a tangent again, apologies.

here's my quickie:

fear of death is natural, and genetic; demanded by survival and ingrained by evolution. it's there.

some years ago i was in this strange situation of pulling a big bull with ropes suddenly everyone lets go and guess who the bull looks at? my adrenaline shot like a motherfucker & i FLEW away & over a tall fence that left the bull charging at some posts.

besides fear there is cowardice-- oy, the constant, fucking, annoying terror, and the worries, and the... !! that's a disease and i've had my share of it.

i can also speak towards the "unfulfilled life"-- once i was hurling towards this building at maybe 50 mph inside a car the vehicle skidding and having done anything possible to avoid the collission and then to minimize its impace i faced the inevitable and-- surprise!!-- what pops into my mind?-- is it "booohooohoo i am going to die"?? -- no!-- it's "But i haven't done what i wanted to do...". i came out of the thing w/ a busted eyebrow and some major ptsd, but the stress had more to do with the consequences of staying alive & facing, oh, a number of destroyed cars & the injuries of passengers. the busted eyebrow (i was wearing no seatbelt) was the result of a last-second reaction to cover my passenger w/ my arm, so that my face impacted the windshield.

so i can say, you're afraid of death when your job is to avoid it but once you're right there it seems that other instincts take precedence.

True, but I think that's only a tiny element of the overall human fear of death; however, I could be biased in saying that, as I have no religion. Theoretically, one can only truly fear what one has previously experienced, as (logical) fear is largely based upon the anticipation of unpleasant consequences; and we can only deem something unpleasant having encountered it before. We can conceptualize a fear of the unknown, but not actually 'possess' it.

I had a point there, but my phone rang, and I forgot it. It probably wouldn't have made sense anyhow.



There, that's better.

Surely the fear of death disproves this theory.

Unless you're calling fear of death irrational.

And as fear is an emotion, something internal and intangible, how can conceptualized and actual fear be differentiated?

Important distinction you made there between instinctual fear and cowardice.

I haven't read any part of this thread yet, but I sure do like this picture.

I wouldn't bother, it's too depressing. Just stick with the picture.

This is why I argue that the fear of death isn't for most rooted in the fear of the unknown, or anything spiritual in nature - I hold that it lies more in the ego, as atari correctly identified it. It's the lamentation of what one will fail to experience upon dying. But again, that's very presumptuous and biased of me - I can't really identify with those that have a concept of the afterlife, positive or negative, religious or not, so perhaps this is a more prevalent basis of the fear of death than I realize.

And I think any emotion can be differentiated that way - you can theorize the unexperienced and unknown, and therefore predict a relative emotional reaction; however, to me that differs from anticipating an emotional reaction to/consequence of a prior concrete experience, one whose mere occurrence has conditioned your mental response.

Ex. Fear of afterlife = fear of unknown = conceptualized
Fear of being stabbed = fear of physical pain = actual

However, whether those are respectively illogical and logical are even debatable.

I'm tellin' you, llamas are where it's at. Their mere existence negates the need for this entire discussion.

"Death is Death, la la lalala"

yeah, my instinctual fear is not even a fear of the "afterlife", whatever the hell that might be (a fiction, i suspect). it's the natural terror of being destroyed which... kicks the body into higher gear to save one's ass. rabid dog? run. cornered by rabid dog? kick his ass. i've ran away from the cops too...

i am very definitely afraid of death, so i try to drive at the speed limit these days. i think a healthy fear of death promotes good health & self-preservation.

however i do not live in cowardice of death, waking up in the morning and saying "oh no! what could it be today? flesh-eating bacteria? ossama? the increasing murder rate?? stray meteorites? mutant mexican zombies???". fuck that! that shit is for people who watch the tv news.

my point, i forgot what was my point... oh yeah, i don't want to die, so i need to eat, so i need to work, so i'd better quit posting here. :p

What separates the human animal from the other animals is the will and the potential ability to contemplate death consciously.

It naturally follows that this is our human responsibility.
Instead, what we find is primarily a world full of deluded "individuals" that wear masks as a bulwark against death and where elaborate anthropomorphic institutions of hero worship have been established to fend off death.
All of this is natural, however, but as humans evolve technology, they are steadily losing touch with meaning as the technology progresses too quickly, and thus, in general, a slow, gradual de-evolution trend (in modern nation-states mostly) is taking place whereby our minds are becoming mentally sick(er), and our bodies are becoming weak(er).

So, none of that is not to say that ritual does not have its place though.
What we find in some cultures, as opposed to say, the mass in Catholicism which has become sterile, is the virile ritual of say, the Spanish Bullfight, La Corrida, where man confronts his animal nature (the mastery of utilizing and controlling instinctual fear) and learns about his true human animal nature. Of course, the Spanish culture is well-steeped in meditation upon death. Just look to Lorca's writing or Picasso's painting.

I agree, but doesn't the adage "there is nothing to but fear itself" sort of apply here?

all fears are illogically based. do we need to post "MAURY!! MUSTARD RUINED MY LIFE!!" here? her terror over mustard goes far beyond most people's fear of dying! it's all relative. I'm afraid of stinging/flying insects because I was stung IN the ear when I was about 6. to this day I scream like a lil' girl when I see one. the wife hates spiders even worse so it evens out I guess. :p

do I want to die? hell no. living is kind of cool. [understated]

does it cause me any terror? absolutely not.

I'll go ahead and just geek out here so as to attempt to explain myself the best I can.

Decay and it's agent Death are but cyclical processes that all life goes through. it's beyond natural and beneficial, it's absolutely necessary.

the particles in our bodies that are elementally higher than hydrogen and helium were formed from the massive explosions of stars much more ancient than our brains can really grasp.

these particles were flung outward "randomly" from many points across the sky. through the miracle of gravity (praise Xenu!), these particles grouped together into something greater than themselves. life was born of decay, even in the beginning.

I'm thankful to whatever cosmic algorithm there is that allowed me my human form. I'm glad that I'm not a mayfly with only one day to eat, fuck and fly (you know that's one hell of a good day though).

about 6 billion years from now, our sun will have exhausted it's nuclear fuel and begin to turn into a red giant. all of the material on the surface of this planet will be blown out toward deep space (and who knows eventually what).

I FUCKING DIG THAT. why would I be afraid of dying when I know that??

and like I said, I died before and it didn't ruin my life. :p

I have a ten year old son, and I could unequivocally say YES, I am afraid of his death and of him dying (even if it's due to his age). but it's based only on "selfish" reason (ie: I want my son to live a long life).

sorry for the ZOMG(MEGA)BLOG, hopefully this proves everyone right. :D

death rides a pale llama.

Your fear of stinging insects doesn't seem illogically based at all to me - it's based on a past negative experience.

And I'm not questioning whether you fear death. I believe it's possible not to fear death, but also not to want to die. Simple enough concept.

What was the point of this discussion again? Fucking sophists.

yeah, I tend to avoid serious threads, but I had a 1/2 day at work.


again, you shame me. :(

If you mean I shame you with the sophist remark, it wasn't directed at you.

But if I shamed you in some other way, that's fabulous. I take immense pleasure in the suffering of those around me.

This makes me wonder why you don't post here more often.

There is a line in the sand of participation on this forum, the crossing of which would turn me into a masochist. And that only applies in certain situations.