it involved the smell of lavender. I'll say that.

Anyway, according to Scaruffi.com, these are the ten best:

1. Gun Club: Fire of Love (1981)
2. Husker Du: Zen Arcade (1984)
3. Minutemen: Double Nickels On The Dime (1984)
4. Ramones: Rocket To Russia (1977)
5. Butthole Surfers: Psychic Powerless (1985)
6. Clash (1977)
7. Henry Rollins: Hot Animal Machine (1987)
8. Fugazi: Repeater (1990)
9. Dead Kennedys: Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables (1980)
10. X: LA (1980)

Fire of Love is, apparantly, the greatest punk album ever. And there was me worrying about Appetite for Destruction.

I'd put in the first Crass LP ("Feeding Of The 5000"), the first Banshees LP ("The Scream"), and as a very distant cousin who deserves to be in for sheer energy, the first Motorhead LP.

By way of contrast, someone-or-other thought these were the 10 most over-rated punk albums:

10. Social Distortion - s/t
9. Black Flag - Damaged
8. Mighty Mighty Bosstone - Question the answers
7. Descendants - Milo goes to college
6. Dead Kennedys - Frankenchrist
5. Rancid - and out come the wolves
4. The Clash - London Calling
3. Ramones - Mania
2. NOFX - Punk in Drublic
1. The Sex Pistols - Nevermind the bollocks...

I find it hard to believe that anyone rates the Mighty Mighty Bosstones, but I can't argue with 9, 5, 4 and 2.

Of those, I've only actually heard 9, 7, 6, 4, 3 and 1.

Are they overrated? Probably by some people. I've definitely never got the whole Dead Kennedys thing, and who seriously rates Mania anyway? NMtB is overrated by some (me probably) and underrated by others.

The fact that no list so far has mentioned The Heartbreakers' L.A.M.F is just flat out wrong in my opinion. For me it's as good, if not better, than the first Ramones album. No NY Dolls, either. Clearly no Thunders love out there. The world is an ass.

Someone on another thread mentioned not being able to get X. I can't recall who it was, but totally. They make a lot of lists despite being, well, I dunno, just nothing really. I mean can anyone tell me what it is I'm missing when it comes to Los Angeles, because whatever it is, I just don't hear it.

Jesus, Rancid are about as punk as The Offspring. As for the Descendants, I've never been a big fan of theirs, but you can't deny that several hundred bands have ripped off their formula to the nth degree (see: Green Day, Foo Fighters, etc).

For me, I'd put the first Clash album as being THE most over-rated punk album ever. A tinny productions disguiseth not a lack of decent tunes.

The NY Dolls/J Thunders axis are definitely punk in the true sense of the word (see also Lester Bangs on this point), but I think the Dolls were too much into a rockin', hip-thrustin' sexual groove to be what is considered punk now.

normally i agree with your taste in women, but never in my right mind would i give it to vorderman.

Anyway, if I have ten, these are pretty much it:

The Heartbreaker' L.A.M.F.
The Ramones' S/T
The Dead Boys' Young, Loud and Snotty
The New York Dolls' S/T
The Sex Pistols' NMtB
Suicide's S/T
Iggy and The Stooges' Raw Power
Patti Smith's Horses
Bruce Springsteen's Darkness at the Edge of Town
The Cramps' Songs the Lord Taught Us

Who mentioned anything about 'right mind'?

the clash's first album is by far their best, some memorable songs in there.

the most overrated punk album is nevermind the bollocks, sure it has some good songs and made an impact but it's not like it's the book of revelations and the one lives and dies for.

When it comes to something like Lookin for a Kiss, I reluctantly agree, but Jet Boy? Jesus, that's as punk as a shower-block full of arse ripped convicts.

Re. Ramones Mania - Christ, I forgot how much turgid filler there is on that. It almost put me off buying the first Ramones LP full stop. I really never want to hear Dee Dee Ramones' "singing" ever again.

Discharge should certainly be in any Top Ten of punk -the infamous "D-beat" and wall of guitar sludge racket has inspired countless bands, and they were the first UK band to play at near-hardcore tempos.

Am listening to it now - a great razor-sharp riff in the verse that is pure punk rock, but harmonies in the chorus? Still, if you could melt down punk attitude and feeling to it's pure essence, "Jet Boy" would pretty much be it.

I half agree, but equally feel that some people write it off a bit too easily. Not suggesting that's what you're doing, but I hear it a lot from people. It's not the greatest album out there, I'll admit that much, but it's pretty fucking spectacular, nonetheless. It's got 'Bodies' on it, as well as 'Holiday in the Sun' (the final minute of which is just nuts). Thinking about it, it really doesn't have a bad song on it.

discharge - never again
damned - machine gun etiquette
the heartbreakers - LAMF
patti smith - radio ethiopia
ramones - ramones
the ruts - the crack
television - marquee moon (which is only counted as punk for being part of the CBGB scene anyway but there you have it)

there's 7.

drail6x3, I like the New York Dolls, they are just not top 10 for me...
but hey, I'm someone that likes Sonic Youth and Talking Heads more than any "proper" punk band, and I award that highest spot to the Sex Pistols which some here seem to love to hate. I also rated bands that are really more or less rock bands like The Stooges and Patti Smith Group higher than strictly punk bands.

Like many seem to be expressing, my hat is off to the punk pioneers, but as far as favorites go, I've sort of outgrown wearing leather, tattered denim, and safety pins. I don't have any piercings or tattoos either. Oh, I suppose I'm on the cusp of the metal thing now, oops.

Yeah, I mean, by the criteria laid down by a lot of people, it'd be hard to even make a case for the Heartbreakers, let alone the Dolls, being 'punk' bands at all. Christ, are even the Pistols considered punk by someone who listens to stuff like Minor Threat, or Black Flag?

it drags a bit towards the last half.

The last half of which consists of, God Save the Queen, Seventeen, Anarchy ..., Submission, Pretty Vacant, New York and EMI. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Have fun, but don't take too long in there.

Considering I was a huge lover of punk for many years (starting in about 1978), I could only think of eight albums I'd bother listening to now. And they are:

The Clash - The Clash
Dead Kennedys - Plastic Surgery Disasters
Black Flag - Damaged
MDC - Millions of Dead Cops
Circle Jerks - Wild In The Streets
Husker Du - New Day Rising
Wire - Pink Flag
Ramones - Ramones

There are many albums and bands I love which have been mentioned here, but they're not punk: Big Black, London Calling, Gun Club, Suicide, Cramps etc.

And many bands mentioned who I don't love and are not punk: Stooges, New York Dolls, Patti Smith etc.

the raincoats - s/t
beat happening - s/t
minor threat - discography
discharge - why?
supercharger - singles party
mudhoney - superfuzz bigmuff
big black - atomizer
The Fall - Dragnet
The Ramones - s/t
Suicide - s/t
Black Flag - Damaged
The Brentwoods - s/t
Harry Pussy - What Was Music
Harry Pussy - Live 10"
Sonic Youth - Kill Yr Idols
Teenage Panzer Korps - Gleich Heilt Gleich

you know? i had to pull out my copy of it, i thought "anarchy" and "god save the queen" were a side.

i never cared much for "seventeen" and "submission"; "new york" and "emi" are easily the weakest songs of the bunch though, that's probably why i think side b isn't that good.

after "pretty vacant", that album is over for me.

Fair enough. I actually think the running order on the album has changed a few times anyway. Always the same songs, but not not always in the same order. Mine ends with the ones i listed, but would have to check up to see if it's the same with the original release.

I forgot to add: The Ex - "Disturbing Domestic Peace". Anarcho-punk doesn't come much better than this.

Of course, they are Dutch, so I guess some boardies will draw their own conclusions from that....:p

EDIT: On the Kraut-punk side of things, I nominate the first Abwaerts LP, whatever it's called....and the first LA Dusseldorf LP - some very punk-like riffing on that.

mine has the same running order.

---

melly: big up on the ex!!!

The blurb from the site mentioned by Glice, listing the most overrated punk albums.

1. The Sex Pistols-Never Mind The Bollocks Here’s The Sex Pistols:
First of all, let me say that when terrible music comes to mind, I immediately think of this lousy band. I can’t get over the fact that just about everyone seems to think that this piece of sonic garbage comes anywhere close to being worth listening to. This band could not and still can’t play their instruments…and they’ll be the first ones to admit it. If you think that that was what punk rock was about, then you are obviously in the dark about the whole punk movement. The Sex Pistols were nothing more than a bunch of bored teenagers that were deprived of attention so they felt that if they spiked their hair, wore leather and put pins through their nipples, that they would be able to get up on stage and romp around and smash things and people would overlook the obvious fact that they sucked as musicians. They drew attention to themselves by causing trouble in jolly olde England with swear words and public drug use while bands like the Clash and the Exploited could rip your face off and make you think at the same time. And the legacy that the Sex Pistols are remembered for is “Never Mind The Bollocks”, and album that sounds like it was pieced together by a group of third graders on crack. Best punk album of all time. Right…and Jesus killed the dinosaurs because they made fun of his momma.

--

I've got absolutely nothing against people criticising this album, but I would like to know where this whole 'they can't play their instruments' thing comes from. The Pistols were never virtuoso musicians, but seriously, Glen Matlock was a perfectly reasonable bass player. Equally, Steve Jones and Paul Cook, while they wouldn't worry members of Yes, were themselves quite sufficient at what they did. Sid Vicious (who wasn't as bad a bass player as people like to suggest anyway) only really appeared on Bodies (reportedly).

The human who wrote this is a total penis. "Spiked their hair, wore leather"? "Pins through their nipples"? "Public drug use?". This oaf has conflated the Sid Vicious cliche with the Pistols themselves. It's also a bit fucking rich for our man to (falsely) criticise the Sex Pistols for sartorial choices that The Exploited made a fucking career out of. Perhaps one the Pistols told him to piss off once? His writing certainly has the stench of "fanboy with a problem" about it.

Dutch Punk. Fucking hilarious idea that. You have to hand it to them I suppose. They don't mind having a go.

Such a great word. It really is.

three more

wire - pink flag
the kids - the kids
the clash - london calling

Who are The Kids? I'd google it, but feel a little uncomfortable doing so.

Two members of Dutch anarchos De Kift ponder the state of punk in Oranjeboom-land..."Sho, why ish demonrailsch not liking the Dutch punk bandsch? We haf really cool gigsch and truly exshellent grassch."

I wouldn't call London Calling punk.

"Cor, well, it don't stop me looking, mate. You got anything under the counter, special stuff..you still got those John Lindsay films, guv?"

Belgian band, they've only had like 2 - 3 decent songs imo. Saw them recently at some free festival. It's pretty sad to see 40-year old tossers playing punksongs. I actually know the drummer personally he's in a band with my dad.

I know, a very under-rated one, methinks, and quintessentially English too.

Look at them. They're so hilariously Dutch aren't they. I don't think I've ever met a truly pissed off Dutch-person. Watching them try and be angry is like watching a Skoda try and do a wheel spin.

i can't think of a band with music that sounds more stodgy than the clash. if they were a food they'd be old porridge with no sugar

I don't see how they were stodgy. Explain yourself young man.