I would so chill with young Beto. I'd give modern Beto a nougie.

actually the dutch health care system is described as a "managed chaos". people have a lot of choices in said chaos. maybe worth looking into.

too much order is as horrible as too much chaos. maybe even worse.

and there are a lot of things about the status quo that are great, but people rarely notice them unfortunately. for example, i like not having famines, i like having drinking water and electricity, central heating and air conditioning, affordable private independent transportation, i like my private health insurance, and i like not having compulsory military service, and i wouldn't give up any of that voluntarily.

not all change is good and revolutions often end up in disaster. but you'll find out eventually.

switzerland has better universal healthcare than your country through fully private markets, with some subsidies for low income. insurance is really compulsory there though, with possible prison sentences for avoidance, but at the same time the industry is highly regulated. it is also decoupled from work, which means you need not be afraid to leave your job.

obamacare went half-ass on the swiss model. it's all they could squeeze.

but there are many ways to reach universal healthcare. government takeover of the medical profession is not the only one.

personally, having experienced government healthcare, i like to have a choice of provider.



what interests are those? and i don't know about the cases she prosecuted, honestly.

anyway i guess you never read about comissars and informant networks and gulags under communism.

"progressive" rule means big government, which%

which means a big law enforcement apparatus. from the car that drives around looking for unlicensed tv sets to the enforcement of alcohol monopolies, price controls, etc., anything unsanctioned requires a cop. the bigger the government, the more prosecutors you need to prop up every rule.

i don't know if you realize you paradoxical position here.


i'm old enough to have seen the end of stalinism. why did the east germans need to corral people? lmao. please, man. when everything belongs to the government, the government belongs to the few and the elite, and the authoritarians are in charge. it is the logical conclusion of these theories. no amount of wordsmithing can change that. we already found out empirically.

i grew up in various latin american countries with various degrees of socialistic policies. they were all a fucking disgrace and only succeeded in distributing poverty and increasing corruption.

for a contemporary scenario just look at venezuela. please.

eta: oh! i also spent almost a year in an israeli kibbutz back in the 90s. no young people wanted to stay so they had to import thai workers. ha ha ha!


the foremost fiction is that they are FREE, of course. there is no such thing as free goods and services. everything must be paid for. we have unlimited desires, but limited resources which have alternative uses. so every economic choice is a tradeoff. the tradeoff is the cost.

if you begin from the fallacy of free good an services, and no scarcity, and no tradeoffs, you're just operating in fantasy space.

just because the costs are hidden from sight or papered over with rhetoric, it doesn't mean that the costs are not there. in fact, governments are almost always offer higher costs and lesser quality goods and services than private enterprise.

i am actually tempted to say “always” but i cannot be sure. vast majority of cases i am right though.



i'm not here to defend militarism. however, beware of power vacuums and greedy neighbors.


see, this is what you need to know what you're talking about before making up "theories".

the guy who makes little money actually receives taxpayer-funded healthcare through the government. obacamare actually forces you into medicaid when you don't make enough. so this imaginary person with his gofundme you're talking about is already receiving berniecare.

i actually know actual real cancer patients who get cancer treatment this way and they don't have gofundmes.


good luck selling "scandinavian system" to america. i don't think the culture is there, and i don't think that people will like the tradeoffs once they actually experience them.

getting mandatory health insurance is hard enough. government takeover of the health industry-- many will hold their noses and vote for trump.

so we'll see how that goes. show me something solid and some figures instead of rhetoric. but i know that printing infinite money *does not work.* give everyone 'free dollars" and inflation ensues. good luck decreeing price controls to control inflation, lol. we'll all start paying with swiss franc or yen.

shit. i didn't know the IRA was active again. or was it a prank? damn...

I mean, you can enjoy those many freedoms in other countries but with an added social safety net. Though I refuse to believe you like your private health insurance. I assume you're grateful to have it, but it makes no sense when the resources for a universal system are there and not being taken advantage of.

Like? What other power is going to tell capitalism no? Revolutionary power? :D
She rejected criminal justice reform every step of the way as a prosecutor and is now turning around and supporting it because of the way the tide has turned and electability reasons, for example. She jailed mothers for their children's truancy. How can anyone trust her?
I have, I know a lot about that stuff. I never said I want to replicate early 20th century Russia, just that Lenin and his writings are very influential for modern day leftists and that it's more complicated than "lenin bad man!!!".
I mean, I'm talking about fundamental change to a broken capitalist system. The idea that progressivism will lead to a huge police state is funny red scare nonsense considering the amount of surveillance and policing going on right now. It's a total red herring to present that as an obstacle to a fairer society for all. What up NSA.
What is the logical conclusion of capitalism? Make no mistake, capitalism cannot sustain itself forever and it seems that countries will either grasp onto socialism or fascism as the ball drops. Government already belongs to the few and the elite due to factors that capitalism has facilitated. Didn't we just have a scandal were elite schools are basically pay to play institutions for the rich? These people go on to high positions of power but without the cognitive ability to lead and emphasise with real problems.
You're not going to agree with me but there has never even been a true socialist state! Lenin's end goal was to shift his party's autocratic position into a socialist state after seizing power. Whether you want to believe he would do that and whether that method is justifiable is up to you. I don't really have an opinion on that aspect of him. Venezuela seemed to suffer more due to capitalist world economics and American neo-imperialism than anything to do with socialism. I don't know any leftist who sees Venezuela's case as anything other than an empty "BUT WHAT ABOUT" rebuttal used by bad faith right wingers.
Again, a lot of other countries have these things. They are subsidised greatly by the government through fair and proper taxation. I don't see how this is a fantasy. I would never trade the NHS with private health insurance and no one who lives here under a universal system would either.

Here's what I found (and already knew) with a quick google search:
GoFundMe CEO: One-Third of Site's Donations Are to Cover Medical Costs

People Are Raising $650 Million On GoFundMe Each Year To Attack Rising Healthcare Costs

"But the big business of GoFundMe is now medical bills. Since the company’s founding in 2010, it reports having raised $5 billion. Of that, a third went to the 250,000 medical campaigns the site conducts annually. Simple multiplication suggests that the number of people who have sought help has run into the millions."

Just because you have not met cancer patients who have had to resort to desperate measures to get help does not mean that there aren't MILLIONS out there who are just shit out of luck from no fault of their own. This is just one tiny sliver example of the many issues that a for profit system generates.

I don't think it's there yet but it's changing. Studies show that a large percentage of young people engage more with socialism politically than anything else now, and that's because they have grown up in a capitalist world and haven't (and will probably never) see any of the benefits that their parents were given. I wonder if anyone didn't like the "trade off" when national health systems were implemented in other countries? No, people cherish their free healthcare and fight for it everyday away from the hands of right-wingers that want to sell it bit by bit to the private sector. The NHS was one of the best things Britain ever implemented and was done during the post-war economic downturn. Why implement it during tough non-economically viable times? Because anthropological studies were done and the health disparity between the rich and the poor were so obvious and unjust that it was the right and dignified thing to do. Many can hold their nose all they want but it's the right and dignified thing to do.
Nah it was part of a huge bomb scare epidemic that happened that day. Multiple universities and hospitals were effected.

what is "universal" to you. "it comes from the universe"? blanco please! stop lying!

my private insurance is great. one year when things went to shit with my business obamacare forced me into medicare. i refused and refused but eventually tried and... it was a fucking joke! they kept putting me in and taking me out of it.

at the same time they took the catastrophic health insurance plans off the table.

so the government actually placed me in health insurance limbo

TRUE STORY

consumer choice tells capitalism no and yes and maybe every day.

what limits consumer choice is government meddling in markets--at the behest of existing market players of course. like when the gubmint took away my catastrophic $200/month plan and gave me some fake medicaid i never wanted.


ok so this government that jails mothers and shoots black people is who you want to run the health care system? lmfao


lenin had a lot of good intentions, but like all absolutists he fucked up


so are you talking about a social safety net or a "fundamental change"? you got me confused now


i don't know the logical conclusion because i'm not looking for it. i do not presume to deduce the ultimate goal of history like a marxist. capitalism is doing great lifting billions out of misery in a way that no utopian absolutist ever could (they inflicted misery instead).

as for the elite schools... any system where connections rule over performance is going to be corrupt. in socialism where everyone is "equal money", political connections are the real currency.

i prefer to pay with money, thanks.


yes yes same as the libertarians. "we've never had true libertarianism!"

lmao. pipe dreams.

like i said above (i was editing, maybe you didn't see) i spent nearly a year in a kibbutz. as ideal as socialism gets.

they recently added some capitalist fixes and stopped hemorraghing people
keep your government-rationed health care and i'll keep my insurance-rationed health care. you're going to have rationing either way. i'll have a private room, you'll be in a ward. i'll get attention tomorrow, you'll get it in 9 to 12 months.


250k campaigns a year for 8 years that's 2 million campaigns.

like i said before, a lot of people remain uninsured because obamacare did not go far enough and/or it actually raised their premiums.

again, i'll take the swiss model over your national army.

everyone dies in the end. me, you, and everyone we know. there is no amount of non-profit that can prevent this. we can only choose to allocate limited resources which have alternative uses. this is a fact of life and nature and governments are subject to it as well.

even non-money scenarios are subject to these limitations. we always have to choose and we have limits.


yeah, they've engaged with socialism in books and speeches. i've engaged it in the flesh. not again, thanks.

ah shit...

We could probs go back and forth all day on this hahah. You seem to struggle with the idea that socialism of the new does not need to be like socialism of the past. If you had free healthcare you wouldn't need to think of healthcare plans like, at all? It's not this airy fairy idea, god. Disregarding the far left chatter for a sec, the healthcare issue has literally been solved by making it free and paying for it through sliding scale taxation. What about this is so crazy? The USA is 37th (!) in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's healthcare systems yet it is the most powerful nation on earth. You guys are behind a lot of countries with a lot less economic power. How is this okay to you? Do you think it matters that people in your very wealthy country have no health insurance and die penniless? I just don't get it man.

THERE IS NO FREE HEALTH CARE

STOP LYING

Okay then, continue on with your tragic, horrific healthcare system that devastates millions of lives all for the profit of a few.

and i am very much for fixing america's health care failures, but i don't think a wholesale government takeover is the way to go.

i am actually for a VOLUNTARY public option. let those who want expanded medicaid pay for it. let every type of service fund itself.

I mean, if you want private health insurance in the UK you can have it. It's not forbidden, there are private hospitals here too. Still doesn't mean that the national health service isn't justified.

STOP LYING MAN

you're setting up fake oppositions between imaginary "free" lies and disaster.

your health care is not free. everyone pays a lot of money for it.

Well maybe it's right that everyone pays into the service that so benefits their lives (and saves them). The thing is that even if you can only pay a little, you still get the right to healthcare as a person with dignity who will get sick sometimes. What's wrong with that? Not to mention that it's a proven fact that poverty and poor health are linked greatly. Unless you're just bitter that you've done well for yourself and have to pay a bit more than others for the betterment of the country's most vulnerable? That's honestly the only stance I can take mentally that could justify thinking for profit healthcare is a better alternative.

i don't know. weren't they in trouble recently? what do the swiss have to say about your system?

the question LIKE EVERY TRADEOFF is: is it worth the money you pay for it?

--

see, taxes are neither free nor unlimited. they're a drag on the economy. yes, in turn they provide a public benefit. too little taxes, you get no public services too much taxes, the economy slows down and your revenue is actually smaller.

figuring out tax rates requires a fine touch.

at the same time, just because you're getting tax revenues it doesn't meant they are unlimited. you always have to choose. you have to ration. these are hard questions. if you could save a baby's life by letting 10 adults die, would you do it? what about 2 adults? how much is it reasonable to spend on any one patient?

Weren't they in trouble recently? I dunno, that's vague. The UK is two places ahead of Switzerland in WHO's rankings of the world's healthcare systems and nearly all of the positions ahead of the UK are countries with a national health service. You can rhetoric it all up yourself like you said I was doing, but the evidence is all on my side.

but we all do pay for the most vulnerable!!!

the gofund mes that you find are probably from middle class people who refused to take out insurance. 2 million beggar campaigns in 8 years, but still 20 million a year refuse to buy insurance or simply can't because premiums went up after obamacare.

but like i already said, ***really poor people get medicaid already***
**poor people in america get "free" (as you like to call it) government health care***

so that's already in place.

i am not "doing well for myself" nor "bitter". i live on very little, but i simply accept that life has tradeoffs. i know there is no pie in the sky so i am not asking for a slice. YOUR HEAVENLY PIE IS LIES.

Refer to my post last page 4 ur response.

last i heard it was crumbling. please show me the stats
this is a random google
not even top 10
https://fr.april-international.com/e...thcare-systems
18
https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/
18
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/
the experts like the swiss and french
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...y-bracket.html

etc.

yes the american system NO DOUBT needs fixing but there are better models than your national army and the proposals of demagogues of all stripes.

bernie is just like trump: all promises of "free" shit, and magical bullshit with no tradeoffs

oh uk is top 10 in "efficiency" not quality.

How do those links invalidate what I'm saying about a national health service? The UK's healthcare system's issue is a lack of funding from the Tories as they keep taxes low for the obscenely wealthy and turn a blind eye to blatant offshore accounting by billionaires while they sell it off piece by piece to private companies for a huge profit that does not benefit anyone other than other obscenely wealthy people. Our healthcare system is getting worse because we are starting to follow YOUR model.


I repeat, the number one most powerful country in the world ranks 37th in healthcare.

i think i remember your national health service was crumbling already in the 70s? they had tainted blood and it was a complete disgrace. no? it was all good?

anyway i hear you on the utter underperformance of the american system. i mean right now we have a measles epidemic because of a bunch of moronic antivaxxers. and these are not religious goober right wing types, these are crunchy granola organic vegan hippies from oregon

what you need to get through your head (lol) is that in a country of 325 million people who are not used to follow a lot of rules, the national health army plan has zero chance of passing.

this is not a little kingdom you can rule by decree and the people are going to say "yessir".

when you have 100 different cereals in the supermarket you can't tell people they can just have the federal government as a health care provider. it just won't fly. it's not culturally possible.

and when you tell people that shit is "free"... they fucking know better. they will ask "how much is this REALLY gonna cost me and what am i REALLY gonna get for it?"

the eu is 500 million people in 27 countries

the usa is 325 million people in 50 states plus various territories

try imposing one health system in europa and see what happens... i'm saying this so you understand the proportion and size of the problem

there are solutions, but anyone offering an easy solution is a fucking liar

The NHS is free at the point of use. Obviously it's paid for by taxes but isn't that just stating the obvious?

“free at the point of use” means “costly at the point of supply”

that “free” means “taxes” or “already included in the price” is not obvious to a lot of innocents who believe you can just will things into existence without paying

or that “the billionaires” will magically pay for all

lol!

truly, economic illiteracy is hugely widespread

—

seriously. i know you get it but a lot of people don’t

I can't speak for the US but I'd be surprised if many people in the uk don't know that the NHS is funded by taxes. Certainly anyone with a job will know, if only cos it's listed as a deduction on their wage-slip. And even if they're unemployed, it's just something they know. Maybe it's different in America, but in this instance you weren't talking to an American.

for example, the notion of “billionaires” and “taxes” and “corporations”

billionaires dont walk around with a lot of cash in their pockets.

they don’t “make billions” in income.

their billions are from ownership in successful companies. as markets have expanded globally, bringing more people into the economy, some fortunes have soared. yes some companies are hugely valued.

but these fortunes are in the VALUATION of these companies. it’s not free-floating cash.

if bezos right now needed to pay a billion dollars, he’d have to sell a bunch of stock, and the price of amazon would drop immediately. then held be out a billion. one-time deal.

“let’s tax the corporations” then

fine, tax the corporations... but since many corporations have to operate on thin profit margins due to fierce competition, then they have to make up for the tax burden by either
a) passing the cost increase along to the consumer, so the consumer pays the tax
b) cutting costs, which often means dumping employees, who now have to collect public assistance, so everybody else pays the tax
c) reducing profits, fucking over not just bezos, but also the fixed income crowd and pensioners. sorry grandpa, go back to work! and so, retirees pay the tax.

so there, the consumer and the worker and the old people end up paying for the MAGICAL TAX INCREASE on businesses.

i dont know what taxes derek pays or if he is aware of the cost of “free” health care. it’s taxpayer funded healthcare so it should be called that.

but how tasty it says to say in a rally “free healthcare! free education!” and the crowd roars (i’ve done it actually)

and oh, or else paid by billionaires. except it isn’t as i showed above. it’s the middle class that gets fucked. the consumer, the worker, and the retiree.

this is the kind of stuff that happens when corporations underperform

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-pension-funds

“oopsie” i guess. fortunately some of the people quoted understand tradeoffs

but hey LET’S KILL THE CORPORATIONS! our children will support us in our old age. lmfao

Oh no, we need the Supreme Court and Term Limits.

Eight years for the House and Senate and possibly Ten for the Supreme Court.

We don’t need lifelong politicians......serve four years -win reelection- serve four more years and go home......and you can’t become a lobbyist!!!

Trump supporters and socialists will never be on the same side. We are on complete opposite sides. Socialists are also not on the side of the political center, we are on the side of socialism.

The election of Trump was not a "revolution", he is a right wing demagogue of which there are many of in history. Just none as funny and as stupid as him, admittedly. I dunno, Bolsonaro tweeted "what is a golden shower?" so maybe give him some time to show what a brainless oaf he is. Neither is AOC's rise, she (and Bernie and others) is just the beginning of further left change.

Ladies and Gentlemen, The President Of The United States Of America:

"Spreading the fake and totally discredited Dossier “is unfortunately a very dark stain against John McCain.” Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel. He had far worse “stains” than this, including thumbs down on repeal and replace after years of campaigning to repeal and replace!"

(Trump was never qualified to lick McCain's shoes. There was no "replace" plan, and that's why McCain did the right thing. Oh, and btw, McCain is dead, so he cannot defend himself now, can he?)

beware of socialist health care man...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/17/w...core-ios-share

yep. power is its own currency. that’s how they roll.

As if you are gonna convince me that I'm wrong! Healthcare 4 ALL!!

g ah yes, who needs evidence and reason when you can have magical chants?

you’re smarter than this, well, shit, i was also smarter than that but used to hold similar beliefs once upon a time. unfortunately i was ignorant and had been bamboozled by power lusty collectivists who offered “not the same thing as before”. so i wasnt a commie but i thought there was “some way”. it failed of course.

hahahahaaaa.

hey, do you remember sandinismo? have you seen daniel ortega lately?

haaaahaaaahaaaa.

that mother fucker. hanging on to power just like all the other power lusty authoritarians. pig walking on 2 legs.

and you make fun of bolsonaro (an eejit) but forget it was lula/rouseff/temer’s corruption and mismanagement who brought him to power.

yes yes, “this time won’t be like last time”, yes. lolol. same fucking broken record. same thing since 1917.

anyway, in my state of new mexico we’re working hard at actually providing health care for all, and lowering costs, while also preserving consumer choice.

we have expanded medicaid (it sucks, massive bureaucracy, but better than nothing), and 40% of residents are already enrolled in it.

we have community health centers (these are great, i used to just pay out of pocket, cheap), we have obamacare health exchanges for individuals, we have employer-provided health plans, and we have the indian health service for federally recognized tribes.

since obamacare was implemented the uninsured rate was cut in half, we now have 9% left without insurance, but people who receive treaty-funded medical care at the indian health service don’t actually need insurance.

although the ihs encourages their constituents to get insurance, there are many exemptions, and in practice most people are exempt from the insurance requirement or any copays. i havent researched the math but i know first hand mega-numbers of people that depend on ihs alone, so, they are “uninsured”, but they get treaty-funded healthcare, free at the point of service. visits, meds, vaccinations, hospitalizations, pregnancies, everything.

ihs is not the best quality, but depending where you are it can be pretty decent. santa fe ihs is fucking nice for primary care.

there is also a large number of undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for medicaid expansion so that goest towards that 9%.

but there is also now a bill in the works to let people buy into medicare expansion voluntarily.

of course all of that is not reducible to a basic chant hahahaha. who needs policy, and economics, and statistics, and reason, when you can fix all of messy reality with chants?

voluntarupurchaseofmedicaodexpansion NOW!!!

Ladies And Gentlemen, The President Of The United States Of America, Donald Whitehouse:

"Joe Biden got tongue tied over the weekend when he was unable to properly deliver a very simple line about his decision to run for President. Get used to it, another low I.Q. individual!"

Ah yes, who needs evidence when so many countries have a successful national health service "But muh Venezuela, muh Brazil". Like they're the only countries with them and that their problems aren't because of a whole host of reasons.

Face it, your country has a shitty system envied by literally no other country.

"medical care" in the USA is dictated by what lying, cheating, con-artist insurance companies wish to cover, so as to make their bottom line be fat for their shareholders.


It is BRUTAL. The USA is a place where the sup[er rich get illegal medicine with no repercussions, while the desperately needy are forced to prove they are worthy of charity and kindness.


to the super rich, health insurance works like a credit card. They rack up bills and pay it off no problem. for someone making $8/hour, paying a $200 deductible just to get some antibiotics is a motherucker.


the insurance scam is the hugest pyramid scheme in operation today, apart from teh stock market.

$8/h deductible wat? oh yeah the state of texas didnt expand medicaid with obamacare lololo.

you do live in the worst place.

Dude, I literally gave you tons of evidence and reason for a national health service when we went back and forth. To imply otherwise after I got bored of the argument is sooooo disingenuous. You only gave me bad faith strawman arguments back that didn't undercut the point of what I was saying most of the time, unless some random NYT article about the Swiss health service being the BEST is supposed to convince me otherwise (oh wait, Switzerland is only ranked 20th on healthcare in the world lol).

I didn't pull my feelings on the world out of my ass yesterday, I've lived with this healthcare system my whole life and I pity people who have to deal with the American healthcare system more today than I ever have.

Also, I'll copy and paste this a few times so you can't ignore it:
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE

Seriously, WHY do you think that is? And don't give me some bullshit about "hmmm well inflation in 1978 led to a collapse of insurance premiums and blah blah". No, it's because your for profit health system DOES NOT WORK. The evidence, reason and logic in this argument is not on your side, sorry.

see this is what you continue to fail to understand

this is not a monolithic country. there are many systems operating at once.

yes, it definitely needs fixing in places.

but “socialism” is not the fix

and chants can’t supplant reason

I'm terribly confused. We all know that USA Health Care is a complete fucking mess. (I live in Canada. Lucky me.) We can argue all day about this, but Obama at least tried to so something. Trump has only tried to kill what Obama did - what are Trump's grand ideas on this file again?